Today is all about FUN, a FUN-ctionally fit life with my guest Dai Manuel. You’ll learn how to balance personal and professional roles while prioritizing fitness. We’ll explore the concept of what “optimal” means in fitness and life, the role of ‘fun’ in fitness, and practical strategies for finding balance while living a fit life.

Known for his award-winning digital thought leadership and best-selling publications, he’s an extraordinary blend of business acumen and contagious enthusiasm. Dai’s journey as co-founder, COO, and CMO of an eight-figure retail company and a sought-after lifestyle mentor and executive performance coach is impressive and inspiring.

Navigating the balance beam of life’s responsibilities while keeping health and happiness at the forefront, Dai knows the struggle of the juggle. His philosophy is based on the 5 F’s: fitness, family, faith, and finances, all wrapped under the roof of fun, and built on a foundation of health.

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Today you’ll learn all about:

[3:17] Meaning of fitness and fun in a FUN-ctionally fit life context
[7:43] Instant gratification fun vs. true meaningful fun
[10:10] Role of ‘fun’ in difficult but effective fitness activities
[15:36] Coping with constraints in achieving personal goals
[17:59] Definition of “optimal” in life and fitness
[25:31] Personal optimization considering individual circumstances and trade-offs
[28:32] Max thanks Philip for helping him prioritize his health and dropping 45 Lbs
[31:04] Having a big enough "why"
[35:15] Handling uncertainty and variability in personal optimization strategies
[43:13] Gravitating toward something that makes you nervous
[48:08] Giving people power and agency to go after a goal 
[52:01] Role of data and feedback in the optimization process
[54:39] One question Dai wished Philip had asked
[57:21] Where to learn more about Dai and his work
[58:45] Outro

Episode resources:

• Instagram: @daimanuel

• Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/daimanuel/

• Dai Manuel’s Whole Life Fitness Manifesto: 30 Minutes a Day for a Healthier Body, Mind and Spirit - https://amzn.to/3O4La9D

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https://witsandweights.com/free-call


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• Email: philip@witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Dai Manuel  00:00

I understand what Optimal means for me, I understand what my expectations are of me and I also know why I'm doing it. And I think that is the clarity piece that people require to really fully answer the question that you've asked depends on what aspect of the our lives or life that we're looking to optimize, you know, because I always

 

Dai Manuel  00:21

recognize that there's probably areas that need more attention than others. And yet, we all like to do things that we do really well.

 

Philip Pape  00:31

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits. & Weights podcast today is all about fun, a functionally fit life that is with my guest diet man. Well, you'll learn how to balance personal and professional roles while prioritizing fitness. We'll explore the concept of what Optimal means and fitness in life, the role of fun in fitness and practical strategies to find balance while living a fit life. In the world of business and lifestyle coaching there are people who talk about living a balanced life and then there are those who embody it meet demand Well, a man on an incredible mission to positively impact 1 million role models around the globe. As a super dad who leads by example, partner who keeps the flame alive by dating his wife of 21 years, and a high octane life enthusiast die showcases what it truly means to live a functionally Fit Life. Nova is award winning digital thought leadership and best selling publications. He's an extraordinary blend of business acumen and contagious enthusiasm some of that I've already gotten to meet before the recording here. days journey as a co founder CEO and CMO of an eight figure retail company as well as a sought after lifestyle mentor and executive performance coach is not only impressive, but also inspiring. Navigating the balance beam of life's responsibilities while keeping health and happiness at the forefront. dinos the struggle of the juggler is philosophy is based on five F's, fitness, family, faith, finances, all wrapped under the roof of fun built on a foundation of health that is a dynamic speaker, author and thought leader who's here to inspire you to take action and become the best version of yourself die. Thanks for bringing your energy to the show.

 

Dai Manuel  02:35

Thanks, Phillip. That's, oh, man, I'm stoked to be here. I really am honored for the opportunity to have this conversation with you today. So I know we've had lots of back and forth and lots opportunity to creep each other on social. And, dude, I totally love everything that you stand for. But also the fact that we're both, you know, we've got word fathers of daughters, man, and you got to band together my man band together,

 

Philip Pape  02:59

ya know, for sure. I mean, we both we both are at different stages of our lives, we can relate so much. And I'm sure the listener can as well. This is a fitness related podcast, as we talked about, and your foundation of or your philosophy or approach is based on a foundation of health and what you call functionally fit life. So I am about bringing the energy enthusiasm. So what does fitness and fun mean to you in this context?

 

Dai Manuel  03:24

Yeah, I guess. I mean, let's be to be fair here. You know, there's a lot of will say misinformation and redirects, especially when you start going down the path of trying to define for oneself? What does health mean to me, right, or what is being optimal? mean to me, and there's lots of different directions, we can go and we can objectify those answers, we can also objectify them. And it's usually best to have a bit of a blend, but it's the personal experience aspects, you know, that really solidifies everything or takes it from knowledge to wisdom, right? It's that application of the knowledge to create a certain result. And I'll be fair, for those that probably don't know my story, but I wasn't someone that naturally came to fitness. They came to it little bit later in life, you know, I'm gonna say later in life, like in my teenage years, I discovered fitness at 15. But prior to that I had, gosh, I was in a massive state of unhealthy you know, I was morbidly obese. And, along with that, a lot of other, you know, stigmas, especially on the mental health challenges and the bullying and, you know, I was just, it was tough place, you know, a tough place like anyone that's struggling with chronic health conditions, especially if it's more lifestyle orientated, you know, you can't help but look in the mirror all the time and be like, Ah, is that me? And and, you know, and that was an everyday occurrence and at 15 You know, looking in the mirror one day I was just like, I don't like who I'm looking at, you know, and I don't want to be like this anymore because the fear of stuff A stain that way, was not as great, or it was actually greater than the fear of changing. Yeah, and that's when most people are really ready to make a change. And, and so I started that, you know, it took me five years to get to that stage when it took me about, or just shy of two years to take off the weight and to develop a new lifestyle. And that really set me forward in this trajectory of wanting to help others with health and well being changes, you know, and taking control of their situation to maximize and optimize, really the life that they want, you know, and more or less get out of their own way, right and let things happen. And so, over those years, you know, now almost 30 years working in this space, I've heard it all. And I've done a lot of things. And so this philosophy has emerged, you know, the Whole Life Fitness manifesto was the book I published, almost eight years ago now. But it's really just a lot of very common sense type things. But as we all know, with common sense, it's not so common. And, and, but fun. You know, if you're not able to smile every day, there's room for improvement, you know, and I find that no matter what challenge I encounter, that inner confidence, I gained through the fitness aspect, you know, this ability to do hard things, to challenging things, and know that I have the resilience to not only bring me through it, but also to pick myself up when I fall because I do fall. And I follow a lot, you know, figuratively and legitimately. And so that fun and fitness aspect are so critical in that foundation of health, because when that's the foundation, solid, family relationships are better. My working relationships are better. You know, I show up more present not only for those in my life, but also for myself. And so that's sort of what emerged in the five s is really just alliteration to give people sort of some simpler and easier to follow context, when they start to use those filters to apply to their own life. Yeah, and there's,

 

Philip Pape  07:02

there's so much there to unpack. But I do want to dive in more on the, on the fun piece of it, right, because a few things come to mind, right is you've mentioned doing hard things. And I know from personal experience, even just doing heavy squats, it's it's a simple mechanical thing that you're doing with your body. But it's also a form of meditation and growth that like very few things in life that you're able to control and change your body with. And that then causes you to be confident with other things. And I just spoke to my client, Carol, who by the way, is going to be on probably the episode before this one when it comes out. And she talked about how she used to be very, she wouldn't speak her mind. And now that she lives, she speaks her mind. And so, yeah, I love that. So when we talk about fun, how can we separate the idea of instant gratification fun, from true, deep, meaningful fun?

 

Dai Manuel  07:57

Well, yeah, that's a great question. And and it's, I wish I had a very straightforward answer. And I think as simple as I can answer this is, you know, fun, and fulfillment, I think, coming hand in hand, you know, and I think all of us are sort of on a path to want to optimize our level of fulfillment, joy and happiness in our lives, right. And we can't help it. But when we're having fun, you know, adrenaline's going, we've got some other neurotransmitters that are firing in our brains, you know, giving us that dopamine, that serotonin, and that lightening of our mood, but also gives us that little bit of an edge to maybe push ourselves to do things that otherwise we would deem we're not capable. And I find that if you can keep it fun, keep it real, and just trust that things are going to be okay. Because it usually is that, that good things happen, you know, that's where it really change, not only takes hold, but we gain that, that ability to see ourselves as the change makers for our lives. And, and, and I'll be fair in the statement, because, you know, there's been periods in my life where I felt more like a victim of change, you know, and it's a tough place to be, it's really hard to find motivation, and to not continuously procrastinate or find other excuses to not do the things that we know, if we just did the more consistently, we feel better, you know, and, and, but it's a tough place to be, you know, and so that's a long winded answer to a very simple question.

 

Philip Pape  09:29

No, but it's, I think it's required to really think about and step back because some of the things resonate very much with me as a person who will be accused of will be accused of making light of things or being too positive about things. For example, I had rotator cuff surgery a month ago, and I've seen about it and everybody's like, man, it's really positive and then we'll have people that say, you know, I, I had a similar situation. I have to have more surgeries. I'm not looking forward to it. And I noticed there's just a different And in mindset of how people approach things, in terms of like positive psychology, and we want to be sure not to have what the term I've heard is toxic positivity, right, just like thinking that it's positive fun. So the idea of of the neurotransmitters and pushing us to do things we're not capable of, it sounds like what you're talking about, again, is, has to do with purpose, right? It has to do with growth, personal growth, purpose moving forward. And what what do you say to somebody who wants to take a journey of growth, let's say it's physical health, and they just don't like what it's going to take. So they know that that, that they need to do something in a training room, something nutrition room, and you give them 10 options. And for whatever reason, it's just because of their life experiences. I don't want to do that. I don't like to do whatever. How do you do you try to make that fun somehow? Or do you have something that gets the flywheel momentum going, that then makes it fun, because of the results?

 

Dai Manuel  11:02

That's awesome. I love that. I love how you frame that Phillip and and because these are conversations that you and I both have very regularly with our clients, you know, and just probably our conversations on social media, because people know that we do suffer from a chronic ailment called PMA. And for people that don't know that it's positive mental attitude. And it's chronic. And yeah, my wife and I are, we're guilty, we're sick of it. We're sick of with PMA. And so I can appreciate that sometimes people will just say clam up, you know, if they get around people with that kind of outgoing energy. And, you know, I am sort of more introverted in certain ways, but I'm also extroverted in certain ways. And, and I think everyone has that ability. And here's the interesting thing is to answer your question, you know, when we think about change, all of us at whatever stage we are in life have experienced a tremendous amount of change. You know, like to get to wherever we are, we've gone through lots of changes, and it's, it's a given, it's a truth, you know, Buddha like 2600 years ago, he's like, hey, you know what, this whole universe of ours is completely impermanent, constant state of change energies, exchanging from one thing to the other, and, you know, law of entropy science caught up, you know, about 100 years ago and said, well, Buddha was right, you know, everything, just a bunch of space, and everything's changing. And, and yet, I think a lot of us feel like Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark, you know, there's a big boulder barreling down up behind us. And it's a great metaphor for change, you know, and we feel like we're just trying to escape it. And what I like to do is invite people to share with me, tell me their stories of where they've experienced changes, that created a positive result, even though the experience of the actual change might have been negative. And because we've all had that, you mean, change isn't necessarily easy. Otherwise, we'd all sign up and say, Hey, can you give me some more change, please, you know, like, people aren't really lining up for it. Right? And especially when it comes to health changes, because yeah, are they hard? Yeah. Are you having to rewire the brain to now create a new habit to override an old habit. And if that old habit was a 10 year habit, it's not going to just go away in one or two workout, or one or two salads, you know, like, it takes a commitment and consistent effort and a frequency. That is enough that it offsets the negative, you know, and, but it takes commitment. And so I find when people share a story, I'm like, Man, you can handle change, you've done it before. Why is this health change so challenging? You know, and often, you've probably heard about 1,000,001 excuses. And I always say excuses, because they really are, you know, for the most part, and when your fears in the same excuse more than once, it's a habit. And so it's just a matter of having a good conversation to help people see that they are capable. And I find once they have that belief, and that inner confidence that at least is enough to get the momentum starting or create enough for nursing for that first step, that first squat that first squat off the couch. Right before you take your first step on this new journey. And, and that, yeah, and I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Like, I'm sure you've had so many different conversations on this. Yeah, I love how

 

Philip Pape  14:25

you put when you mentioned a frequency, that's enough to offset the negative. What came to mind to me was the idea of attacking resistance of now we have two sides of the scale here. One is our actions. And you can call that willpower or discipline or taking that first step. And on the other side are all the things whether they are excuses or just real things that are very hard for people to overcome. What can you do to reduce that side of the ledger, right, that's actually easier potentially then taking that action, and then taking the action becomes even easier now. Now some of that also might be extremely look like coaches, and your spouse or people who support you where they're just pushing you to do it. And that's your that's what you need. And then you are taking the action. You're like, I don't like this the next day, I don't like this. And then the third day, well, look what happened this week, I'm feeling great. And like you said, the result produces the motivation from there. They're Correct. That is my, that is my thought die. But I do like a spectrum of people, because there are people who are very just inherently, you know, yours, they're yours. And it's okay, it's okay. They just need a different type of communication style and maybe love from people.

 

Dai Manuel  15:37

Well, I was gonna say, Philip, like, even just listening to your podcast, I think this is a wonderful example of a positive input. You know, it's like, what do we feed our minds with every day? Right? Like, because there were our brains are sponges, you know, it has the ability to pick up and learn new things, to adapt to evolve to, to be resilient, you know, and allow us to, to grow into whatever vision we have for ourselves. But, you know, we have to challenge the inputs, if the outputs are not the results that we want in life. And, you know, so that means the, like, Jim Rohn, used to say, what are the net, some of the five closest relationships that we have are the people that we tend to hang out with the most. And I think there's a lot of truth in that, you know, there's power in association. And so if you're hanging out with a bunch of people that are also yours. I mean, you don't know any other way. You know, like, it's just that's normal to your world. It's just Yeah, it's exactly right. It's your world perspective. And, you know, and I've been down that path, I've had many points in my life where my perspective, was not serving me, but I wasn't really aware of it. And nor was I willing to open my eyes to it, you know, until Usually, you have one of those, Oh, heck moments, you know, where it's like, wow, there's a big change that's looking like that boulder that's coming down my path. And if I don't make a change, right, now, it is going to squish me. And there's going to be drastic shifts in my life that are going to happen as a result. Do I want that? No. Why don't I want that? Well, here's why. And then getting back to that, why, again, that purpose that meaning, which, you know, as Nietzsche said, you know, like, it's like, with a strong enough why we can endure anyhow. And I think there's valid, you know, if you have a big enough purpose, it doesn't matter, the challenges that come it will help you through it. I agree. I agree.

 

Philip Pape  17:26

And having and once you have that purpose, it sounds like another area that people struggle, and you alluded to this was the the input output system, right? You mentioned inputs and outputs. And that speaks my engineering mind is that we can either have an open system or closed system, and if you don't close it with feedback on the output to the input, then you just aren't aware, you're just not aware of all those models are helpful for people to understand of why we do things, why we track something or you know, collect, or listen to a podcast and so on. So that leads me just quite naturally, not intentionally, but quite naturally talk of optimization. And what is optimal mean, right, like, in the context of physical mental health. To me, when I hear the word optimal, I at least have been conditioned on the word optimal from all the podcasts and things in the world. It's, it's as close to perfection as you can get. Right? That's the, but then the other side is, you're never going to be perfect. So what's best for you? And is that optimal? So what does it mean to you? What is it for me to do?

 

Dai Manuel  18:35

Well, so here's something that I had to learn, and I kind of learned it the hard way, because I think I was resistant to it initially, especially as I was aging, you know, enter into my 30s, mid 30s, especially, you know, I was still able to train at high intensities, like very, very high intensity really challenged myself and, and yet, my body was changing. You know, it was there were certain shifts, like things that we do in my 20s, where if I tweaked something, the next day, I'm, well I can go lift again, or I can go train again, like I just would sort of work through it. And it felt like my body was more resilient, or just had this better recovery ability. And, and, you know, it may have been true, it may not have been, you know, it could have been just my 20s and my my stubbornness to just push through it. But then as I got into my 30s, and as my kids were getting older, I realized that I had to sort of shift things because my life was shifting. And so I had to challenge sort of my belief systems around what is optimal, especially when it comes to health and fitness. Because it's such a big part of my life, just like yourself, like it's been an integral foundational piece for me. It's really what got me started on this trajectory that had been on you know, since I was 15. And I don't discount that, you know, it's important to me and yes, I have to keep honoring that piece. in me that knows that if I maintain certain levels of fitness, my health resiliency, my ability to manage stress, my autonomic nervous system, you know, it's in a much better place. And in my mid 30s, in the years, there was a sort of that critical moment where I really had to own this. And it was forced upon full disclosure forced upon me, you know, I did a Tough Mudder it was the first time they came to Canada, they did it up at Whistler BC. I went out for it, we had a number of friends that came and did it with us, it was amazing. I love those kinds of obstacle course races, like I really enjoy it, like Spartan, Tough Mudder. Like, I just, I love them, I love them. And I don't do it to race it, I do it to complete it, just to say I did, and I can and I will do it again, you know, and, and after that first Tough Mudder experience. And full disclosure, I'm not a runner. Okay, I'm not a distance runner, I'm a straight sprinter. I do not do long distances, because I do have a lot of muscle mass, and I just I don't really enjoy running long distances. I'm preaching to the choir here. But but my thighs got chafed. And a little bit of a rash. After all that, you know, it's like just about, it's about a half marathon distance. And I'm not conditioned for that. So I got this little bit of scrape within the next 24 hours, this this infection to cool, and my body was systemically shutting down. And we rushed me to the ER, they took a quick blood test. My neutrophils flatlines. And neutrophils is what neutralizes viral infections and bacteria. And they were like, like what's going on here, they thought maybe I had a form of leukemia that I was undiagnosed. And so there was a lot of fear setting in at this point, right. And I ended up being hospitalized for 10 days, you know, and they had me on this like massive antibiotic drip, and they're pumping me full of Neupogen, which is a common biological drug that they use to treat people that are finding various forms of cancer because it bolsters your immune system and gets your bone marrow over producing neutrophils and other important pieces for our ability to recover and defend ourselves. And anyways, my immune system crashed, and three bone marrow biopsies later and a series of other tests, we are able to determine that I have an autoimmune condition that I've probably had all my life up to that point, but I've never really been challenged to that extent. And so all of a sudden, I became hyper aware that wow, certain ways that I eat certain ways that I manage stress, certain ways that I train, you know, especially if it creates huge inflammatory responses that can be really challenging on my immune system. So all of a sudden, you're I'm in my mid 30s. And I've done things a certain way for so long. And I was like, you know, what, I'm gonna have to adapt, I need to change, I need to adapt, I'm gonna train because I've got this underlying chronic health condition, that's not going to go away. But yet, I do not want to compromise my quality of life, I still want to be able to do all the things that I want to do, I want to experience all the things I want to experience I want to I want to live life, you know, to its fullest, no matter my age, and it's not an excuse. It's an input. No, it was and but it was challenging, because I had to discover new ways of doing things new, especially around training. And nutrition. Nutrition was the the biggest one actually, and but after I enjoyed that, and work through it, you know, it took a couple years to really develop a new lifestyle from that. It unlocked something in me, you know, and as I pivoted into my 40s, and now I don't, I'm just looking down the barrel of the gun at 47. I'm actually the fittest and healthiest than I've ever been in my life. And it didn't happen by accident. But that critical moment at 35 shifted my trajectory entirely. And I had to learn a new way of doing things, but man, it helped. And so my idea of being optimal now is really, it's all about longevity and vitality, being able to be the best version of myself and be present for myself and my own life. And to live a life where I can say yes to the challenges that presented to me, you know, and I had a client of mine, he wanted this year, we always like to send a big physical goal, you know, because there's also a huge mental piece to those big physical goals. And we decided to do the West Coast Trail, you know, he was going to do it. And it's an 80k hike and off grade out in the bush in the western coastline of Vancouver Island and very rugged hike. And I was like, You know what I'll do it with and if I didn't have that belief in myself, and that confidence in my health, my ability to to just navigate that. I wouldn't have said yes. And I would have missed out on one of the greatest things that I've ever experienced in my life, you know, so that anyways, big, big, long winded story that sort of tried to give you some context there around what Optimal means to me

 

Philip Pape  24:46

a lot and context is everything. Because that that that that leads to some follow ups that I wasn't planning on asking in a sense when it comes to anyone determining their optimal because you mentioned health, longevity, vitality, you know, and these are great words, but we want to, we want to define things. And we also want to talk about what's relevant to different people, because here's where I'm going different people of different ages, different phases of their life, like you said, in your 20s, very different from your 30s. And then when you discover your autoimmune condition, and many of us as we get older, have injuries, and you know, stress is higher, and there's lots of changes. So where you're starting on where you want to go, and the balance, there are trade offs. So where I'm going is there are trade offs to everything. So for example, if someone is, is just getting started with their lifting, and said, Well, I want to live a long life, do they? Do they compromise some aspects that you care for, for longevity, because they really want to focus on getting super strong, and eating more food, which they wouldn't do forever? Because it could impact on longevity, you get what I'm saying? I do all the all the health goals, we have performance, physique, longevity, they sometimes conflict. And so what are your thoughts on that?

 

Dai Manuel  26:02

That's a great point. Wonderful point, actually, Phillip, and I appreciate you giving me that sort of clarity around that question. You know, and I guess I just to play with the example that you shared with someone had this goal to be super strong, right. And it made me put on quite a bit of muscle mass in conjunction with that. So obviously, their calorie intake is gonna go up. But also their volume, you know, the training volume will probably go up as well, especially when it comes to loading time and attention, all that other good stuff, but my biggest question is going to be why? Why What? What is it about that goal that's really pulling me right now? You know, and it is a goal should be pulling, not just pushing, right? You're pushing yourself to go for the goal. But that goal? Is it like a magnet pulling you towards it? And why? What is the outcome? Like? What does it look like when you're there? Can you define what there is? Yeah, because I think it's important for them to understand what is that motivation, both intrinsically and extrinsically? That's helping them channel this energy and commitment, because you're right, everything comes with a cost, you know, I'm gonna say yes to this, there's gonna be inevitably things we have to say no to, you know, it's like, oh, I wanted to drink my first Ironman, I'm like, Well, you want to do that and get super strong. You know, what, that may not work very well for you, you know, it's gonna be you're gonna be really eaten a lot. And you're gonna be training all the time. And then yet, you're running a successful business, you know, you put in 56 hours a week plus your family time, like, when you're gonna make it all happen, right? Like, let's get real, that struggle with a juggle is legit. And, and so that's just one example. I think it has to be more context through conversation and clarity through through dialogue, you know, and, but I know for myself, when I have those inner conversations, it's always nice to talk to somebody externally, you know, whether it's a coach, a mentor, an accountability partner, I mean, whatever that is, it's nice to say, have a sounding board to sort of speak through the ideas and the things that we want to accomplish or do and yes, and recognize, it might just be a season of that. You know, and that season could you know, I'm not saying it's like three months, like a quarter in a year like it maybe it's a couple of years that will be your commitment. And I'm like I look at professional bodybuilders I mean, they have an offseason guys and so it's recognizing this and that the seasonality of it all as well.

 

28:33

That's a Philippe an awfully for a long time and know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably really helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. But now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently. But most importantly, I do it sustainably if I scientifically sound healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Really paid Easter guy.

 

Dai Manuel  29:18

I competed for the first time again in the CrossFit open this year. But I taken a hiatus for about six, seven years. I had a couple of hernias, and he talked about injuries, a shoulder injury, I could list off all the injuries I've had right and and so I just wanted to take a break from the competition side of things. So I could just get back to a place of just feeling great waking up in the morning not feeling any aches and pains and but it took a lot of time for me to really focus on mobility, flexibility, as well as conditioning with bodyweight exercises, calisthenics. And so I took a break from lifting for a while, you know, and my body thrived. And it was awesome. And, and then I started to introduce weights again, but I'm not gonna go for one rep max is I think going for three rep max is that real often, you know, unless it's a testing cycle and the beginning or the end of like a cycle of training. And that works for me. You know, it works for me. And because I understand what often means for me, I understand what my expectations are of me. And I also know why I'm doing it. And I think that is the clarity piece that people require to really fully answer the question that you've asked, you know, yeah,

 

Philip Pape  30:26

yeah. And I want to I want to come to the why I have a question related to that. But first, the the concept of mixing things up and all these things you've tried and experimented, that strikes me as a very valuable thing to do, as well as sometimes you don't know. Why not? Not that you don't know, the deep why behind your overall activities in your life, but sometimes you don't know whether or why to do something specifically, right. Like, like you said, the CrossFit Games, somebody might be interested in that. And when you ask them why, just because because I want to, there may not be a deep way to that one, in my opinion, I think because because of personal experience, even though there's a bigger why to their life. So Right? In trying to figure out your why I'm assuming there's no wrong answer, right? Everybody's wise or why, right? How does how does someone do that? When they when they just want to try something for the first time, let's say they want to get shredded, you know, like, like they, they've gone around, they built all this muscle. They're like, You know what, but those bodybuilders do I know, it's crazy. Everybody said they're miserable at the end of the cut. I don't care. I really want to see if I can do it. Is that a good enough? Why? You know what I mean? So what are your thoughts on that?

 

Dai Manuel  31:30

I think that's it, I think it's absolutely correct to say is a is it a big enough? Why for them it is, you know, just to prove to them, because it does require like to get to that level of leanness is a commitment. And it is not easy at all, you know, I, for a longest time of my past company, one of our key guys, you know, was professional, natural bodybuilder, you know. And so during the season, though, especially when he was cutting for competition, I was miserable. Really walking around on eggshells, and he had his watch and his phone, he had all these redundancies set, walked around with this massive cooler, and it'd be like, I'm not gonna go talk to that customer now, because my watch went off a minute ago, and I gotta eat right now, you know, and there was like, just the level of rigidity. And non negotiables. It was, was immense. And, but for him, it was the mental challenge of it all, you know, like mentally sound like I have never met somebody so committed to to an end result. And it's also why he's been extremely successful. You know, in every competition he's placed in the top, you know, and it's phenomenal. But it came with a lot of, I'm gonna say the word sacrifice, for sure. You know? And so, the why, and I think this is kind of the interesting thing, you know, we think about, like, what's the meaning of life? While it's like, well, what's the meaning of life to you? And whatever answer that person gives, great, that's true to them. There's no right or wrong. It's that's their perspective, you define the meaning, you know, in life. And I think the same can apply with the why. And if it's just to prove that, hey, I can do something really hard, just to say I, I've done it, and I've done things like that, too. And I did stand up comedy as an example, like, I needed a challenge. And it was something that intimidated the heck out of me. And I was like, gosh, getting up on stage for five minutes and trying to make people laugh. Well, that sounds really freaking hard. That scares the poop out of me, you know? And I was like, You know what, though? I want to do it just to say I could I did it. And you know, and then after I did it, I was like, Man, can I do it again, I repeated it. I did it a second time, you know, and now I've had a break for a number of months, but it was just, it was nice, you know, to do something that I was so intimidated by. And to come out on the other side after it all happened and realize, you know, what, it wasn't as bad as I envisioned it was gonna be. Yeah, and, and so that's, you know, again, some stories to sort of get some context here. But that's some of my beliefs around.

 

Philip Pape  34:03

Yeah, but that's another very powerful thought that doing something intimidating. You said, quote, doing something intimidating was nice. And there's a lot of in that, Steven, because I can think of any time I've done something scary. Like for me in Toastmasters, doing speech contests was scary. They're still scary and still do them. And I've actually blinked out on stage and I still do them. Because I know there's some growth that comes from that regardless, and things are easy, you just don't get that growth from right there. You know, they're easy. There's, it's kind of like in positive psychology, there's a model of oh, what is it here? It's flow, you know, the flow model getting into flow, where the optimal state of flow is the right balance between skill and challenge. So if your challenges and is too high, you're just gonna have anxiety because there's no way you could possibly deal with it right now. But if the challenge is just past your skills, It's getting in that state of like deep, undistracted flow toward that. Anyway, I'm also getting off on tangents I know,

 

Dai Manuel  35:07

it's I think it's all relevant to the conversation we're having. I love it. I absolutely love it Filipino, I love the way your mind works as well. So, continue, continue.

 

Philip Pape  35:16

So if somebody, somebody says, here's how I want to do this, you've had those conversations, they challenge themselves, maybe have good people in their life to challenge them. Yeah. And then they want to take the steps forward, we know that on day two, your plan goes out the window like this. And so, you know, at least the way I put with my clients is like we don't, we're never almost never going to be on the path, but we're going to be somewhere near it. And we'll end up in the destination. Right? Right. And so you've got to have the if then kind of choices and, and contingencies along the way. So given that there's uncertainty, that there's change, that there's complexity, how do you adapt your strategies to quote unquote, optimize? So you keep, keep going forward? Yeah,

 

Dai Manuel  35:59

I guess it depends on what aspect of of the our lives or life that we're looking to optimize, you know, because I always recognize that there's probably areas that need more attention than others. Yet, we all like to do things that we do really well on, you know, and so it's also finding sort of that, that ability to shift between those two areas and recognize that now, there's gonna be some of these things, I'm gonna have to develop new skills. You know, it's things I haven't done before, I've never done very well, well, it's gonna need some extra time and attention, maybe some extra resources, maybe I need to hire a coach or someone to support me through that. You know, like, I do workshops frequently. I recently did with my younger daughter, you know, we went and did a gymnastics workshop that focus predominantly on rings and handstands. And why because I'm a big dude, man, I'm too tan, you know, like six wine. And there's nothing light about me and trying to do gymnastics, especially in rings. This top, you know, really tough, it's hard on my body. And but I also know, it's like, I don't, I believe I have the strength. But I know, I don't have the technique and the skill. So you know, we did a six hour workshop, and it helped by the end of it, you know, I was doing muscle ups. And it was awesome. I was like, wow, you know, like, and and so that confidence and that confirmation that I can do something that I believed I couldn't do before. That was the piece that really solidified Why are committed to doing it, because I love having those little self discovery moments. Where it's like, holy smokes, I did it. Wow. Wow. Like I always laugh about Nike just do it. What a great slogan. It's awesome. But you know, what's better than that? I just did it. You know, like, That is freaking amazing. Because it's the completion or the result of the action that we committed to doing especially when a lot of times there's huge uncertainty, we don't know the future thing, or what will happen when we try that thing. You know, and so it's self trust, I believe that we did, we sort of foster in ourselves as we just navigate these paths, as you mentioned, and but also remember, and sometimes you gotta go bushwhacking. There might not be a path there for you to follow. So it's okay. It's okay. You know, you're capable, you're in what's the worst case scenario? You know, I always Tim Ferriss, that TED talk. He did not. I mean, I don't know how long ago, maybe 1516 years ago, but you know, he talks about fear setting exercises, you know, this idea of just asking yourself, you know, what's the worst thing that could happen if I go and try to do this thing? You know, he's taking that sort of stoic philosophy, and he's applying it to that, you know, and just saying, like, what is the worst case scenarios? Yeah. Because when you start to look at it, you can actually logical take over, because a lot of it's fear based, right? And then all of a sudden, when you let logic sort of look at, it's like, Does that really happen? I mean, I guess it could, could aliens come down? And you know, like, yeah, man, it could happen. But well, now I'm gonna be able to do Spartan that day. That is true. And so but I found that exercise really, really powerful for myself, because it helped me eliminate a lot of these fears that I knew were there. But it couldn't necessarily articulate or reason through. And sometimes you just got to go through that process, you know?

 

Philip Pape  39:13

Yeah. Now the exercise specifically, you're talking about, I was just asking, what's the worst that can happen? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. No, I love that. Because even if so, I had mentioned before flow and challenge and everything, but even if something does seem insurmountable, why not try it anyway, potentially, and at least push yourself toward that, you know, thing. You mentioned that new challenging things require extra resources that stuck with me too, because it brought up two things. One is the idea of balance of you can't be doing challenging things all day necessarily, because you get burned out. I can tell you I can go all day and when my brain is starting to feel tired before my body feels tired. I know I've just been doing too many just on things and I have to go and sit or go for a walk to talk to my Why for play video game? I don't care what it is something that requires no brain power whatsoever. Yes. That and then also, the fact that when you have a new, very challenging thing, especially when it's brand new like, it can be, like you said, lifting the bar for the first time, or whatever for me when it was 12 years ago, joining Toastmasters for the first time, and I had never done this before, of taking the time and decide what do you need in your life to support that, like, don't just walk around, you know, hoping that it'll work in the same way all of your high strength existing skills work, but rather, do I need a group to join? Do I need to read a book? Do I need to join a course I get a coach, just take time to think about it in my daily schedule and so on. I'm not really asking a question here other than trying to connect with everything you said, because I think it's great.

 

Dai Manuel  40:50

I agree. I agree. You know, Toastmasters for me, it opened up a whole new path in my life. Yeah, because I was intimidated by public speaking. You know, like that, that idea of speaking in front of a group, especially large groups of peers, or people, even people in my own industry, even though people that I believe I'm part of the same tribe like that intimidated the heck out of me, like, very, very much fearful of it, you know, and definitely, Toastmasters was that thing that allowed me to channel through it. And I'll do I still get nervous as all heck yeah, I do you my hand sweats my heart rate race. Yeah, it all does. But I can channel that that sort of anxiety or anxiousness into something that can make an impact. And that was why I wanted to do it, because I believed I was being called to do something more. And I think we all are on that path. You know, we all have that Inkling. And so it's pulling us to do something greater than we thought we were capable of doing. Because we do have that potential. That it's just unfortunate. And a lot of times it goes unrealized, you know, and all it took was a mentor to tell me like when I asked him, I said, Listen, that you were amazing at this, like, What's one thing I could do to just be a little bit like you. He's like, I'll give you one word, Toastmasters. That was a Friday conversation. I went home and I Googled on the Toastmasters website, I found my nearest club location I showed up at the Monday morning. And it was called Early Edition Toastmasters because they meet at 630 Monday mornings. And it became a part of my every day for the next four and a half years and then eventually moved on because we moved and relocated. So I found a new club, but it's always been a part of my life, you know, and it's helped so much, so much. I think it's

 

Philip Pape  42:23

an amazing organization. And it's I've talked about on the show multiple times, and I've met guests who I had no idea and after afterward, they're like, Hey, have you heard of Toastmasters? I'm like, yeah, absolutely. I everybody I tell everybody about, at least for me two things that will improve your confidence dramatically is lift weights, heavy weights and join Toastmasters. Like both others, right?

 

Dai Manuel  42:42

Yeah, but you're right, though.

 

Philip Pape  42:45

Yeah. Yeah, I agree what you meant. So you mentioned also the nervousness. And somebody somebody mentioned recently, she was starting a, she just started a podcast. So I love talking to people. So I'm coming up on episode 100. And I feel like I just started and I'm still have a lot to grow. But then I realized people just getting started, you know, have a lot of anxiety about the technical side, and speaking of people, and so on, and I said, you know, that just means you care. And it's something you should be doing, like everything that makes me nervous in my life, I continue to gravitate toward because I think there's value there. What do you what do you think? Oh,

 

Dai Manuel  43:20

I agree. 100%? It's my just, you know, sort of looking at that, as opposed to my own life. And you're absolutely correct. You know, and was it hard to make the commitment to even push myself to try those things? Yeah. Yes, I just trying one thing, but showing up the second time and a third time, you don't do sort of long winded circle here. You know, to get back to your questions like day two, the plan goes out the window was just that, but you showed up for day two, you know, you showed up for it, you did it day one. And then like I I still coach CrossFit, you know, I'm the film guy at the gym, like so just if the other coaches are sick, and they need someone to cover I'll go in, and I'll cover because I love the community element. I love coaching and helping people. And so I like to be part of that community and support it that way. And I always say to people, like, you know, especially when you get these new people here, I'm like, Yeah, sure they show up for that first session, right. And they might have done a Foundation's, and then they show up to class for the first time. Or maybe they just came from, you know, a regular sort of a Globo gym, you know, where they've had more of a traditional sort of history of training. Now they've been introduced to CrossFit for their time, which is very different than than what I was accustomed to prior to joining toes, sorry, CrossFit trying first time, but those people that show up for the second time, I'm like, good on you. You know, good on you. And I think it's phenomenal. And I'd like to remind people because I often will have these conversations with women and we talked about lifting weights and getting stronger and the confidence is for them. And so many women I've met and said I'd love to just be able to do a pull up. I love you know, the pole my dead weight on a bar to get like, you know what, that's a great goal to work towards. And you know, it will start with you know, maybe some ring ropes you know, maybe we'll get some some led to teaching rose will use a band on the bar will start to condition your body to be able to handle that. And here's the cool thing. I know you can do it, and you're gonna get there, and the day that you get that first pull up. That's 100% improvement. How often do you get to say I have 100%? Improvement? Like that's perfection right? Now after that it's diminishing returns. But yeah, regardless, to go from zero to one is always the most rewarding part of the process. You know, always and, and the confidence and belief that comes from that achievement is remarkable. And so I always encourage people this, yeah, you're gonna get started. And you're going to hit that first milestone, and realize it's the first of many, but that first one is so critical, because it will set the tone, as well as the path for you to follow after, you know, and so it's just maintaining your self commitment to that first milestone.

 

Philip Pape  45:56

Well, and I'm making a connection between that, that that first of something, and kind of the dopamine hit you get and like you talked about fun, that is a version of fun, and it's knowing that it's hard. Embrace that, right? Because knowing that it's hard means when you do it, it's gonna be fun. And we kind of connected it all back. I was thinking just this week. So I started lifting again last week with Max three limbs as the shoulder I'm not allowed. But I try to one arm deadlift, not a one legged deadlift one arm. And I was like, this is pretty cool. But I was all wobbly and weird. And you know, stabilization wasn't there. Because it's like, like, you're a newbie again. And it was all wonky and out of balance, but I did it. And then this today, I did it again. And like it was super solid and felt light. And it always reminds me how quickly, you know, you make progress. Like you said, eventually it's diminishing returns, but that initial burst, and that adaptation you get from it applies to anything, not not just physical. Don't you agree? That's right, everything. Yeah, absolutely.

 

Dai Manuel  46:56

I've really, you know, it's, it's awesome. But it's the, like, why I keep and why I've been coaching and mentoring people for almost 30 years now. Is I love being able see I told you. So I saw that potential in you. I teased it out a little bit. And you did it. And now you know you did it. And you did that you did that? I didn't do you did that, you know, and that is that fulfillment piece that I get? I just absolutely love that moment where they're like, Yeah, you did tell me and I did do it. And it's like, just seeing that in their eyes is like, oh, man, it's awesome.

 

Philip Pape  47:30

It's awesome. I agree. And I think it comes from maybe our confidence as well be knowing that it's going to work for them. So then that the counter to that just to be on the little slightly negative side here is true, people have self doubt, because they've tried many things to get that outcome. And we know and health fitness, this is all the time because I hear like, I hear people say I've, I'm in my 40s or 50s. Now the weights not coming off or whatever is not happening. And what I used to do doesn't work anymore. Or, you know, I run a lot and I work out seven days a week, why isn't it working? You know, I've been cutting calories for three years, why isn't working right? And be a little facetious. But how does someone get that confidence back without being manipulated or thinking that they're gonna meet up with another huckster or charlatan? Because there's so much out there? Yeah. How do we? How do we give people their own power and agency to recognize that and find that person?

 

Dai Manuel  48:26

I think the agency word is great, because that's really what it boils down to. Right. And but trying to think of an example, I guess, if you think about health, because, you know, this is talking about health, it's talking about fitness, you know, it's it's helping them achieve that first, when I find people with that sort of negative mindset, or that that maybe that disbelief that they can do it, because they've had so many previous experiences that has been able to prove this new bias that they have for themselves, right? Like it says, it is bias. It's like I have this underlying bias that I don't believe I can do it. And I'm like, Well, do you I understand what these biases do. You know, it's like little programs that run in the background, and you're gonna do whatever you can, especially your subconscious to prove that that's a correct belief. And so that idea of self sabotage is very, very real, man, I know how many times I've done it, okay. I don't think anybody is immune to it. But recognizing when it's happening is a skill that can be developed. You know, that self talk can be developed, it can be nurtured. And I think that's a good place to always begin, you know, it's that awareness piece, that mindfulness piece of oneself and some of those past beliefs being challenged. And I find the simplest way to do that is helping them achieve a win very early on very early on, you know, something that does give that little dopamine hit, right, but also it's like, whoa, okay, I didn't believe I could lose this. This extra five pounds. And yet, I just did You know, and I'm like, Well, you didn't lose it, you released it. It's gone, man. It's never coming back, you know? Right, right. And they're like, oh, yeah, you're right, you're right. But But this belief, this belief is now being redefined. And it didn't take a massive shift and for 180 change in direction to make that happen. And also, it started with that smallest of wins. And I find that if you have that, and you have it early enough on, it's going to be the unwinding of a lot of those belief systems that might have been ruling your life up to that moment. And the, here's the crazy thing, is those belief systems, they're connected to all areas of our lives, all areas and impacts every, you know, every person, it's not just a fitness thing, it's not just a nutrition thing, you know, it's not just a men's health, it's everything. You know, and, and if you believe that it's an isolated thing, that doesn't affect other areas. I'm just gonna say, Iran, Iran, and if you look at the web of your life, you'll see that everything's interconnected. And so the way it there's that, quote, I forget who said it, but you know, the way you do anything, is the way you do everything. It's true. You know, it's true, like, you'll see that, that that belief system repeat itself in other ways. And so it's, it's important to learn a new way of doing things, you know,

 

Philip Pape  51:18

that, yeah, what you just said, reminds me of the broaden and build theory, from psychology, I think it's Barbara Watson, that last name, I should know this, broaden and build the idea that your personal resources spiral upward. Once you get these wins, or once you start to change your belief, like you said, on one thing, it just makes the others it unlocks the rest and it spirals. Opposite of a downward spiral. Right? Very good. And that's true. So the other thing that came to mind there die is like when we say I can't, if we can just use our logical brain and really dissect are we talking about a physical limitation in the law of physics, right? Like the law of the universe, like I can't fly. Okay. Logically, that's true. But 99.9% of the time, the I can't is more of a self limiting belief, like you said, not. And so just assume that you can, and see what that does for you. I don't know that's, that's my thought on it. Like,

 

Dai Manuel  52:14

yeah, I agree. And I'll challenge me when I hear that I'm like, No, I'd rather you just choose not to, you know, like, I want you to to be fully aware that you're choosing not to do this, it's not a matter of you're limited that you don't have the ability to do it, you're choosing not to do it. You're choosing not to prioritize yourself, you know, that's like, that's okay. But it's not, listen, you are talented, you are capable, you have been gifted this life, to accomplish cool stuff. And he keeps saying you can't do it, it's not a matter of can't, it's just that you're choosing not to own it. And if you own it, I'm okay with that. And you should be okay with it, too. You know, and stop complaining about it. Stop talking about it. Just own that that's your decision, you're not gonna do it. Like I had to get to that place of surfing. As an example. You know, we were living in Bali for two and a half years before the pandemic. And I was like, everybody serves here, man, it looks cool. I want to try it out a bunch of lessons can try in it and try it. And then I got to a place I was like, you know, I'm doing this because it looks cool. I'm not actually doing because I enjoy it. Because I don't enjoy it. Keep getting pummeled. I'm a sinker, I'm not a swimmer. Okay. And I was just like, No, I'm just I choose not to do surfing. I choose not to surf. I'm okay with that. But I had to get to that place to own it, you know, because I found myself saying I can't surf. I found myself saying that I hate it. My wife is like, she's really funny. But she's like, No, that's a four letter C word we never say in our house, you know, and

 

Philip Pape  53:43

like you choose not to serve, right? Yeah.

 

Dai Manuel  53:46

So I gotta get to a place to say I choose uncertified I'm, I'm okay with that. And I own it. And I've got no problem with that. I don't think about like, oh, man, I failed or I didn't like I got up this is just, I just choose i There's other things I'd rather do. You know? Yeah. And so, yeah, you're right, the way we talk to ourselves, the way we speak is so critical. And that's also something really valuable we went through Toastmasters right so that practice and feedback it's amazing to see some of the defaults that we have when it comes to communicating not only with ourselves, but especially with others

 

Philip Pape  54:16

agree and that feedback just gives you more knowledge of who you are and what you can do and you know the counter to the surfing example because that that reminds me of something that you you maybe could have gotten good at but you just chose not to do because he didn't enjoy it. The opposite would be you might be good at things and not enjoy them as well. Right? And it's okay just choose not to do them and Okay, so I want to respect your time. We only have a few minutes. I did want to ask one I could talk to you for hours. I this has been awesome. I

 

Dai Manuel  54:45

love the jam, jam and I love this man. It's been great conversation that

 

Philip Pape  54:49

but I do ask this of everyone on the show. So I don't know if you heard one of my shows toward the end and that is what one question Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer?

 

Dai Manuel  55:00

Well, you know, I heard this question and I've been thinking about it. And you know,

 

Dai Manuel  55:10

for me, it's rather cliche to be honest with you, you know, it's like, if given the opportunity to do anything different, would I choose to do it differently? Yeah. And I think about some of those really hard moments in my life. You know, really hard moments, like when I struggle with alcohol and narcotics, you know, is a great period of my life, there was really dark and you know, it's easy. There's a part of me that's like, I wish that never happened. Because there was there was a lot of shame and guilt wrapped up in that, in Ireland, a lot of a lot of self ridicule. And it's hard place to come from, especially when you're trying to make changes in Ireland because you feel like yeah, this Balanchine that's just dragging behind. Yeah, and, but it's those amazing struggles in my life. And I couldn't say amazing. Now, we're going through it, I wouldn't say it was amazing. But in reflecting, and after introspecting, and looking at where my life went, as a result of me saying, You know what, I'm worth the change. And I'm choosing my life over this thing that was consuming my life. I would do it all same. I would, you know, even knowing that that was the path I was on. And that was common, and I was gonna have to go through it again, I would do it. Because my life right now is a result of that moment in time that I had to go through that struggle. And that's something that I always think about, you know, like, and if I could redo things when I redo it, and because it's amazing how the mind works. Plus, I love sci fi, you know, you can sell my common butterfly. Yeah, just alternate realities.

 

Philip Pape  56:44

Yeah,

 

Dai Manuel  56:46

totally like the metaverse. Right. And and so I

 

Philip Pape  56:49

love you know how that story goes, though. The alternate reality, it's always worse. Correct?

 

Dai Manuel  56:55

Yeah. Well, that's what they tend to keep hammering that home. Right. And if it would seem that new Flash movie, they really hammered home in that quite well. But it wasn't a great movie. But anyways, I digress. But yeah, that would be the question. That would be the question.

 

Philip Pape  57:09

No, I love it. I thought initially, you were saying that my question was cliche. And I was like, where did you go with this? By No? Second? Yeah. Cool. Cool. All right. So last question, of course, is where do you want folks to learn more about you and your work? Hi. Well, thank you,

 

Dai Manuel  57:27

Philip, again, for today's conversation. And thank you for creating a space to capture these conversations. And now, all of us get to be flies on the wall and learn all these new perspectives. But also, it's hearing that one little nugget that shifts everything, right, it's just a min. And so thank you for putting so much value at all of us. And, you know, for me, I'm very active on Instagram, LinkedIn, I'm fairly active on Facebook, but I would say Instagram and LinkedIn, you know, easiest places to find me if you can spell my name right? You'll find me because I'm like, the only you know and dies a Walsh name for David dai men, well is Portuguese. And man, you El. I know people are like, whoa, that's weird. And I'm like, Yeah, it's weird. But I'm Canadian. Don't worry about it. Okay, so I'm just to blend and yeah, reach out Connect. I love having conversations. You know, I love hearing what people are proud of accomplishing, you know, what are they working towards? I just, I slept during story. So please, share, share, share, share.

 

Philip Pape  58:29

There it is. And thank you for filling this space. I mean, you talked about the space but thank you for filling it with so much energy today. To Burstein it was wonderful. I will I will throw the links in there for your IG your LinkedIn and also your book The Whole Life Fitness manifesto. I can see that thank you. People find out and that's it. Thank you again for coming on the show was a blast.

 

Dai Manuel  58:49

Philip, thank you. I honestly really honored and finally I'm in the process of prepping to get my own podcast. I can't wait to get you on so I can grill Yeah.

 

Philip Pape  59:00

I would love it. I love James. Good. Good.

 

Dai Manuel  59:02

Yeah, it's on. Take it easy.

 

Philip Pape  59:04

Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.