Ep 95: How Carol Lost 20 Pounds and 14% Body Fat, Set a Lifting PR, and Gained Food Freedom in Her 40s
Today, I’m excited to share a motivating chat with Carol, my client. She’s a teacher, a mom of two wonderful kids, and a happy wife for 26 years. When she’s not in the classroom, Carol might be walking on the local greenway, hiking, reading, cooking, baking, or practicing yoga. But what impresses me most is her passion for strength training, which shows her commitment and perseverance.
Carol achieved amazing results in four months. She dropped 23 pounds of fat and gained 3 pounds of muscle, lowering her body fat from 30% to 16%. Carol learned to eat well, manage her macros, and overcome unhealthy habits. She also reached impressive strength goals, like bench pressing a personal best, doing 10 pull-ups in a row, and finding new confidence in herself and her skills.
Her journey isn’t just about personal wins, though, it’s about the positive influence she’s become on her children, the mental resilience she’s developed, and her relentless pursuit of goals she once thought were unattainable. Carol’s story is a beautiful example of the physically AND mentally transformative power of strength training and fueling your performance.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:55] Carol's fitness journey
[6:44] Introduction to strength training
[8:21] Discovery of Wits & Weights
[11:29] Setting personal goals
[13:29] Nutrition and health strategies
[21:51] Navigating the fat loss phase
[28:32] Celebrating body recomposition success
[33:31] Transitioning to the maintenance phase
[40:01] Mindset changes and personal growth
[42:58] Importance of community
[46:05] Managing stress through fitness
[48:27] Advice for fitness beginners
[51:01] Importance of strength training and online coaching
[54:32] Surprising outcomes from your fitness journey
[56:36] The question Carol wished Philip had asked
[59:51] Where listeners can learn more about you and your work
[1:00:33] Outro
Episode resources:
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Transcript
Carol 00:00
lifting heavy and just like being able to lift heavy things and get strong just really changed my mindset to you know, I can do this like this. I'm not going to limit myself anymore I think. I think as women a lot of times we like put self limitations on ourselves and it's mind blowing because if you'd have told me like that I would be eating this many calories a day and not gaining weight. I'd be like, kidding, like, you know, significant weight. You're choking. That's not possible and it's just crazy to actually be living it out like
Philip Pape 00:35
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. In today's episode, I am thrilled to bring you an inspirational conversation with my client Carol. Carol recently celebrated her 26th wedding anniversary. She's a proud mother of two amazing children and a passionate teacher. When she's not shaping minds in the classroom. Carol might be walking on the local Greenway hiking, reading, cooking, baking or practicing yoga. But the true testament of her dedication and discipline is your newfound love for strength training. In just four months, Carol transformed her body composition, going from 30% body fat to an impressive 16% Losing 23 pounds of fat while gaining three pounds of muscle during a fat loss phase. She's mastered the art of nutrition, balancing her macros, overcoming disordered eating habits, and enjoying full and satisfying meals without feeling restricted. More importantly, she's hit significant strength milestones, bench pressing a personal Max going from one to 10 consecutive pull ups and discovering a deep seated confidence in herself and her abilities. Her journey isn't just about personal wins though. It's also the positive influence she's become for her children, the mental resilience she's developed and her relentless pursuit of goals. She wants thought were unattainable. Carol's story is a beautiful example of the physically and mentally transformative power of strength training and fueling your performance. So Carol, it is a pleasure to have you on the show.
Carol 02:28
Wow, thank you so much. I'm I'm really thrilled to be here. That was like the most glowing introduction ever. Thanks.
Philip Pape 02:36
Absolutely. I mean, it is just the truth. And I know sometimes it's hard to hear our own like story told back to us and are harder or helpful or whatever. But it's really nice to talk to you in this context, because we're usually on a coaching call, right? And now we get to really explore all the wonderful things that we've been through together and your journey. So let's talk about how you got to this moment. Tell us what your health and fitness journey look like before the recent transformation. And then and then leading to the moment that you realize that you wanted to step it up and do something different?
Carol 03:09
Sure, absolutely. Um, so I guess I've been on this whole health and fitness journey for about 10 years, maybe it really first started after my husband and I moved with our two children to a new city. And at that time, my son was in school and my daughter started preschool and I knew that I wanted to do something more active than what I'd been doing. And I have a little bit more free time on my hands. I was a stay at home mom. So I started running, I just started running and I loved it. I really enjoyed it. It was a great outlet. And I'd never done that before. And so I made some pretty, you know, fast gains and just really loved it. I started doing five K's and that sort of thing and really got into it. My husband likes to run to you so it'd be fun to run with him. And then eventually, I just started doing some strength training at home on my own with dumbbells. I don't know if you've heard of Kathy Smith. I'm gonna date myself here, but I had a couple of Kathy's and have a video. And I would do those like, you know, I'd alternate upper body, lower body, I just do my home after I go for my job. And then eventually there was a crossfit box that opened up about 15 minutes from our house and I'm gonna do that. So I got into CrossFit. It was really fun. I loved it. It was I think what I loved most about it was the community aspect. Because I was really seeking that and it was just fun. It was great and you have accountability and you have support and you can like compete with each other but it's all in good fun. So that was great. I loved it. However, I guess after about three months or so, I injured one of my legs and my right leg and I think it was because of it deadlifts not certain but I was essentially sent for an MRI, nothing major was found it was just I was diagnosed with like, anterior tibial tendinitis, or you know, it was kind of like this weird vague diagnosis. However, I didn't have to wear a boot for like, I don't know, maybe a month, I don't really, really remember. And that was during the summer. So that was pretty, not fun. You know, my kids go to school, and I'm stuck in this boot. And after that, I just kind of thought, you know, maybe CrossFit isn't really for me. And so then like, I shifted more towards running again, once my leg healed, and oh, fast forward a few years,
Philip Pape 05:44
just to stop you there. Right? So this is a very valuable tool. I'm sure a lot of people get into these various things and myself to CrossFit, you injured the leg prop, maybe from something you did in CrossFit. And that that was the sole reason you stopped doing? It wasn't anything else, right? You liked the community and all that but thought this is maybe too dangerous, or maybe not the mode of of exercise I want to attempt?
Carol 06:05
Absolutely. That's so true. Like, I loved everything else about it. But then I was like, oh, gosh, I got injured, and I was like, out of commission for a long time. It's awful. Yeah. Yeah. So um, I, like I said, I kind of I kept on running a lot. And then eventually, I just sort of did all running altogether, I was still doing some dumbbells at home. But then eventually, I just kind of stopped doing that I, I returned to a full time job teaching. And I just didn't really have a lot of time. So like, all I could do was go for my run in the morning. That was really all the time I had. And so finally, I guess this was maybe like, a couple of years ago, I was seeing a doctor at the time for just some health problems. And he, you know, he was like, I really think you're taxing your adrenals too much, you need to give the brain a break. And I'm like, I don't I don't want to do that. But I did. And so it was at that time that I really started doing the weights and I stopped running, I decided I would just walk instead of run. And then I started doing a lot more weight training on my own in the time that I would have spent running. So I didn't go on my own. For about a year and a half, maybe ish. Just doing the YouTube videos, I had a couple of channels. Carolyn Gervin was one and I would just, you know, use the dumbbells. And that was pretty much it. I do like maybe 3045 minutes a day. And so then, I guess, more recently was when we about a year, any last fall, I should say last fall, I was when I really got interested in doing it more like just just with dumbbells. And it was probably really in December that I decided I was just gonna go for it. Because we have all the equipment at our house, my husband, like totally decked out our garage, and it's a home gym basically. Fabulous. It's so great. And I'm, I feel so lucky to have that don't have to go anywhere. It's just, you know, right there. So, um, I feel like it was maybe in December or January that I heard you on a podcast interview with Karen Martell. I had started working with Karen to address some health problems I was having. And she interviewed you. And it was like, the best interview and I knew, I've got to start lifting heavy. And you like you knew everything, you had all the right answers. And I was like, I've got start doing this. And so I basically just kind of started out there with the barbell training going up from the dumbbells, and I've been just doing that ever since
Philip Pape 09:01
love, I love it. So that whole story is, is not so uncommon. I mean, except the part about, you know, finding me and saying that was the perfect interview. So I appreciate I'll just let that let that image sit there. But um, you mentioned the hormones, right? You mentioned the adrenals, for example. And I think a lot of people do find it surprising. When, like, if somebody asks me, What do I do, I've got all this stress and like you're doing too much, and maybe you should lift heavy No. And and the confusion is often there. How does how does lifting heavy weights, you know, help with your, your stress and adrenals. And we find that the recovery, right? The recovery versus the stress that you're placing on your body, it just shifts in a completely different direction. And it sounds like you've started to discover that and then you you did the dumbbells and then you started to get into barbells. Now, what was it and I'm not stroking my ego here, but what was it that you heard on that interview? You that you're like, I have to do this.
Carol 10:03
Um, well. So I've been doing the dumbbells on my own for so long, and I just felt like I wasn't progressing. And I mean, there's only so much you can do with dumbbells. And so I think it was really that and I just, I felt like I had maxed out on that. And also, I was getting a little burnout on it. How's my skin kind of boring? You know, I'd like to try something new. And back in the day when I did CrossFit. I loved it, you know? And I just, yeah, so it just sort of reignited the fire in me to get back into it.
Philip Pape 10:34
Yeah, so that's great. So it's a plateau, which I think is important for listeners, because that's one of the biggest problems people have is plateaus in their training, their nutrition, their physique, and it and like you said, it could come from doing the same thing over and over again, in something not changing enough to change you. And there's something has to give, right? And you recognize that it was the load on the bar. And some some people tiptoe around this. But like, if you ask me, what is the quote unquote, best way to lift I'm probably going to say barbell training. And then you can say, Well, what about dumbbells? What about bands? What about bodyweight? I'm gonna say yes, yes, yes, those are effective for a while, for a while, because as you get strong, it's just a function of going against gravity. And like you said, the dumbbells get kind of burned out, because, you know, you have the same movements over and over again. And you're not going to be lifting 150 pound dumbbells? Probably, before you probably instead, switch to barbell. So you know, what, one of the things you did you hit a PR on your bench, right? While we work together, you're really excited about that. And I just want you to talk about that excitement as in the context of this so that people understand how fun barbell training can actually be?
Carol 11:42
Sure, sure, absolutely. Well, usually, when I'm doing my strength training, it's, it's in the morning by myself in our gym, or home gym. And I don't ever have anyone spotting me, I get up really early, because I have to leave the house really early to get to work. And so we were on vacation, and there was a local gym that I'd looked into. And so we decided to just pay the one week fee and join it, and my husband and I, and then sometimes my son, we would all go together. And so since he was there to spot me, you know, technically it was supposed to be a D load week, like I told myself, I was gonna do a D load. You know, he's here to spot me, so I'm just gonna go for it. So um, yeah, no, it was really fun, who was just great. Not only the I got a PR, but also just having the encouragement of him. And then some other folks around there, you know, that we're watching and stuff. And so yeah, it's just nice to achieve a goal that you have in your head and be like, Oh, I really can do that. You know? Yeah. So that's been really fun. I did since then I've done I did a one rep max on my body weight for the bench press, which was pretty cool.
Philip Pape 12:55
That is amazing. As a big milestone. Yeah. It's just just so fun. You know? Yeah. So you got into strength training, this was late last year, correct. Leading into the beginning of the year, or not got into straight barbell training,
Carol 13:09
barbell training was really probably more like January. Because in the fall, I was still doing the dumbbells and I was so heavy, I was having all these health problems, and I gained some weight. And so then in January, I was like, you know, I'm gonna do this barbell for me, you know? Yeah.
Philip Pape 13:26
So then you got into that. And let's, let's also turn into the nutrition side, because that's a lot of where we worked on together. How did you I know, you found about out about me through the podcast, but the coaching practice and Wits & Weights in the community, you know, how did you find out about all that? And what resonated with you and your goals?
Carol 13:45
Yeah, sure. Well, after I heard your interview with Karen, um, I, of course, subscribe to your podcast immediately. And I started like listening to every single one I could. And so start
Philip Pape 13:56
from episode one. Did you do that?
Carol 14:01
I don't think I listened to Episode One. But, I mean, there's so educational and so informative, and you cover all the basics, and it makes it very, like just anyone can do this, you know, like, anyone could do this. And so that was really, I guess, where I got started. Just listening to your podcast. And then I guess I reached out to you. Because like, I mean, one thing that really impressed me about you was just your genuine desire to help other people. I mean, like, You're the real deal, you know, like there's no gimmicks, none of that. And I knew that I could do like a one on one call with you, just as like a basic introduction kind of thing and not not have to pay for it. And I thought, This is amazing. So that was when I reached out to you and we did the one on one and then I feel like you really gave me some great guidance like first steps things to do to get me on the path to where I needed to be
Philip Pape 15:01
And what were those things that were like? What were you remember? What were the things that you really wanted? When I'll say, Well, we started working together because eventually became a client. But even in that initial call, which as you said, it's not the way I do them, it's not like discovery calls, sales calls, because I can't stand those tactics. And I don't like the like, let me get you to call on that. I'm gonna tell you, I don't even mention that in my coaching unless you ask, but it's really like, how do we get you from A to B? Because for me, that's what frustrated me for years and years and years, is just knowing exactly how to do it. And that how to do it is often not what we think there's so many beliefs that we have to shift from what we thought to what they really are, what were the things you really wanted and your big goals at the time?
Carol 15:42
Yeah, so I'm just real quick to say something you helped me learn to shift was my attitude towards training, like I was like, all in, but like too much all in like, I was way overtraining, like I was, I was hardcore five days a week like, and sometimes Saturday, and Sunday, just never allowed my body a chance to rest and recover. So like, You really helped me make that change for sure. That it's okay to take a rest day and to recover. And that's part of the process. So that was awesome. And then the other shift was with nutrition, because like, any other time that I had, like, tried to lose weight, I would just restrict, restrict restrict a lot like restrict, you know, every day, like Monday through Friday, and not eat enough. And then on the weekend, I'd be starving. And so then I just like eat all the things, which just, you know, I was just like totally backpedaling, any progress that I've made, and it was totally not sustainable, not sustainable at all. So you helped me really see a sustainable way to pursue nutrition in a way that allowed me to reach my goals. And so like, my, my primary goal was really just to lose weight. Because I just wasn't comfortable with my body weight, I didn't feel good and healthy. During the fall, I'd had some health problems, and I hadn't been able to work out at all for like, maybe a couple months. I don't know. So that was my biggest goal. But also I just, I just wanted to get back to where I felt strong and fit and healthy. You know? So
Philip Pape 17:19
yeah, so much there. So the first thing you mentioned was that less is more, and I can't tell you how many I would say the vast majority of the conversations I have with people is do less just just do less, and you get the kind of the look really right. Or, or the concern that isn't my metabolism gonna go down if I do less, right. And I think I even did a recent episode, because I get that question so often, and it was about how working out less can increase your metabolism. So I'm glad you took that message and found that, hey, I could have more time in my life, more time to myself and still make progress.
Carol 17:58
Right, right. Yeah. You first told me to do just like Monday, Wednesday, Friday, like the compound movements Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I was like, that's just three days a week. That's insane. I couldn't like it was so hard to make myself do that. To only do three days a week, but But it definitely was what I needed.
Philip Pape 18:15
It is and it's it's counterintuitive to me to this day to Carol, it really is. And there are some strength training programs that are like just do, you know, heavy singles or triples twice a week? And do one movement? You know, yeah. And you still make progress. And it's crazy to think that some of these things work. But your your growth in your strength in your muscle is really an adaptation, right? It happens as you sleep, it happens as you recover. So if you reframe and say what my lifting session is giving me the most maximum stimulus possible, as short time as possible, so that I can let that recovery process work. If I'm working out seven days a week, and if I'm running every day, I'm just constantly interrupting that process and never letting myself
Carol 18:59
that's what I've been doing, which was just ridiculous.
Philip Pape 19:01
Yeah. Yeah. And then the nutrition, the weekend binge is also very common. And I say common Carol, right? Because I want that, that you've got a lot of listeners who I know are going to learn from this conversation, just like you said, the podcast likes to cover the basics and teach you things that anybody can do. Carol did this. anybody listening can do this. And the things she's going through the things that a lot of people go through the weekend binges where people say I don't understand why I'm gaining weight or not losing weight. I'm really good Monday through Friday. And you don't realize how much you deviate on the weekends. Right? Whether it's was it I don't know if it was alcohol or just mindless snacking or just going out like what was it for you?
Carol 19:42
It was pretty much it was there was some mindless snacking for sure. But also like just some emotional eating tied to like daily stressors, you know, like just the buildup of stress and things like that. This is like self sabotage, you know,
Philip Pape 19:56
so yes, yeah, yes, but somebody said recently on a show on another The Park as I was listening to that, you know, emotional eating is a learned behavior to learn behavior. And it sounds like you were able to either unlearn it or learn something to replace it. So I don't know if that's a simple thing that occurred for you if it happened over time, but what do you think was the catalyst for that?
Carol 20:16
Well, I think just the process of really dialed into my nutrition with you, and especially once I started using macro factor, and eating enough calories on a daily basis, and like not feeling restricted, and not feeling the need, or like the ones to overeat on the weekends, because it was all good, you know. So that really, just that process really taught me a lot about emotional eating and the triggers for it, and you know, what's the cause of it? And this is why it's because you're ever restricting. So yeah, perfect.
Philip Pape 20:53
Yeah. So you became aware of what you were doing? And that awareness itself sounded like it already unlocked the vast majority of that, that journey, right, because so many who would just don't know what's happening. And now that you know, and now that you're tracking, and this is important, because people think tracking is obsessive or causes disorders, what all that is, is bunk, right? We know from the evidence, and from experience that unless you have a prior disorder, tracking only helps like tracking your budget, right, like tracking your schedule for your meetings, and tracking everything else makes you aware and gives you control. And then the other thing you mentioned, was eating more. And that's the other thing that's counterintuitive for people is, so many people are not eating enough. And if you eat enough and let your body you know, relax and destress and not restrict now all of these other issues go away. Right? Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And I'm just, I've just paraphrase everything you just said it wasn't a question, but it's good to re emphasize how important all of these are. Okay, so I think about a four month period, you've gone through mostly a fat loss phase during that time. And just so the listener understands, like Carol is lifting, you know, she's lifting properly with progressive overload. She's, you know, pretty self discipline that, in my opinion, like, there's different levels of discipline people have just naturally, and not that discipline, and willpower necessarily have to be high for this to work. That's where accountability comes in. But she's been able to take the things we talked about, like the sleep and the stress and all that and go and execute to that. But, and that allowed her to start a fat loss phase fairly quickly. It wasn't so and I say that because not everybody's ready. Not everybody's ready for fat loss on day one, right. And some people call it a cut, whatever you want to call it. So share the experience of navigating fat loss, right, the challenges and roadblocks because it's not easy. Let's be honest, it's not even fun. Always. Let's be honest. It's it's a it's an extreme in a way. It's a it's a deviation from the norm that we want to live every day. But you have to go through that process occasionally. So how was that for you?
Carol 22:59
Well, I mean, you're right, it's not easy. But also, it wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it was gonna be, I have to say, like, macro factor was the best because it just does everything for you. You just punch in the numbers, and it tells you what to do. And it's fabulous. So I just like I followed that to a tee. I'm really detail oriented. So I love tracking and like keeping up with everything, you know, I just I love that. So I basically I just did what microfactory told me to, and every week, it would cut my calories by a little bit more. But it wasn't by these huge amounts every week, you know, it was just like maybe 100 calories, some weeks, it was only 50 calories. And so gradually, I would just I would make the changes, I would sub in something for something else that you know, had less calories. And as I went along, and I learned a lot about which foods make me feel the best. With the least amount of calories. So that was pretty cool. Um, and I was like, I guess maybe I think it was week 14 of the fat loss phase, I think I was down to 1400 calories. And I didn't I never even had to go below that. Like I didn't have to I thought it was gonna go down to 1200 or something. A number to me, that sounded really unmanageable, but it was pretty, and I
Philip Pape 24:14
and you're fairly petite, let's just say I mean, we don't have to share all the details unless you want but you're fat. We just want people to understand you're fairly petite. So 1400 calories is is not bad, really deep into a fat loss phase.
Carol 24:25
Right, right. Yeah. I'm like five, three.
Philip Pape 24:29
Exactly. It's important to know that right? Yeah. So
Carol 24:31
like that was not that at all. And the other thing that I really, so I've always been someone who likes to eat mindfully because I have a history of some digestive illness. And so I really usually always try to eat mindfully when I eat for that reason, but this really like, dialed that in big time because like if you eat slower, then you're gonna get fuller, you know, and like it really taught me the importance of just like eating slow Totally, and it really helps you like savor every bite and really appreciate what you're eating. Because you know, that's all you're getting. So, so Yeah, honestly, I was really surprised at how once all the pieces came together, like working with you and using macro factor. And of course, the barbell training once all the pieces came together, I was really surprised that like how effortless it seemed, I mean, I really I, I really did not anticipate losing the weight that quickly. And that was pretty cool.
Philip Pape 25:30
Love it. Yeah. And I saw that progress. We can we can put it into numbers in a second. But you were surprised at how effortless it seemed? And just is there is there one thing that sticks out of out of all that that was the most important. So I know it's a lot of things. And sometimes people feel overwhelmed, like, oh, I have to track and I have to train I have to this and this and that. And ultimately you want to incorporate all those practices. But is there one or two things that were the most important out of those?
Carol 25:58
Um, so yeah, like, for sure tracking, but also just having the mindset that I was in this to be successful, like I like, in the past, anytime I'd ever tried like to lose weight on my own, I would always just, I never would succeed, like after a little while, you know, I just, I've never had any success. And I'd give up and just give up. And so this time, there was just this mindset change that was like, I am going to do this, I can do this. And I will do it. So I think that was really important to just keep in my head. And also, I mean, it's when, when you can see the progress, like, since I was lifting heavy, and you can see the progress from week to week, it's motivation to keep going.
Philip Pape 26:46
So many good things. Okay. All right. So the first thing is the mindset to be successful, but not doing it on your own. I think that's important, because I don't know about you I have I have all sorts of coaches, mentors, teachers in my life, whether I pay them or not, they're all over and I seek them out. Because the fastest way that humans usually grow is getting feedback, as you go through a process to see what your mistakes are and how you can improve. And so you knew, if we got on a call and like things, were just all out of whack? I'd let you know. And we would dial on it. Right? Yeah. And oftentimes, when that happens, especially for a client like you, again, who hasn't natural self discipline is you'll just then go ahead and make it happen so that you don't get called out to your coach. So there's all different styles, some people, it's more reactionary, right, they kind of, you know, make certain choices, and then have to get schooled a little bit, you know, in the coaching call, which is all good. Or you tend to have that in your brain like, Okay, now I'm gonna be talking to my coach, so I better get it all in gear. But then by doing that, you got results, and those results motivated you. Yeah, that's the awesome part of this, because that means we don't have to be working together for 10 years, you know, you're gonna be able to go on your own. And, and do it because you know, that the results are gonna happen, like you have certainty that a lot of people lack. So. So awesome. Yeah,
Carol 28:07
absolutely. And like, like any doubts that I ever had about that, like, I would just reach out to you, and you just reassure me and you tell me what to do. And I would do it. And it was just, it just worked like magic.
Philip Pape 28:19
Yeah, like magic. Love it. Yeah, no, it is like magic, I feel the same. Even Even when I go through the process myself and make choices. I'm like, wow, that actually works. It's biology. So it put it to put it in numbers for folks, I alluded to this in the intro, you lost 20 pounds from 140 to 120. Okay, so there's a way we're gonna just put it out there, including a massive 14% loss in body fat. And so I want the listener understand incredible numbers here. Because when we talk about gaining, maintaining and losing, generally people who have some training under their belt, they might be able to redo some MRI composition, at maintenance. Generally, they it's very hard to gain extra muscle in a in a diet, right, in a fat loss phase. I think I think this is my theory is that because you just started really pushing the weights properly, in January. And then shortly after, when your fat loss phase, you were still in that newbie gains phase? Sure, from a stimulus perspective, and then you were in a fat loss phase. So you, if we take your percentages, and we do the math, you lost 23 pounds of that 20 in fat, meaning you gain three pounds of muscle, because like it would be negative otherwise, right? Pretty cool. It's cool, right? So so just again, for the listeners, she lost 20 pounds on the scale, she actually gained three pounds of muscle and lost 23 pounds of fat so you got leaner upon leaner. Doing that that is pretty cool. It's like the Holy Grail of body composition. Right? And, and now of course Carol is going to potentially go into a building phase and might gain a tiny bit of fat in the process at some point. If she builds and then as she cut Once again, you know, she might not be able to necessarily gain this gain muscle, but she's already gained all this muscle to keep in the future. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're looking to connect with like minded listeners on their health and fitness journeys, come join our free Facebook community. It's a supportive space where you can share your experiences, ask questions, and access free guides and weekly trainings. Just search for Wits & Weights on Facebook, or find the link in the show notes. Now back to the show. So did you get stronger while losing that fat? Like? It sounds like you gain mass. But did you also gain strong get stronger?
Carol 30:36
I did get stronger? Yes, I am. Yeah, I track all my weights and everything and how much I'm lifting. And I always do progressive overload. And yeah, like I could, I could still lift heavier, almost every week with my, with my lifts. So that was pretty cool. And you
Philip Pape 30:53
know what that tells me that tells me that besides your individual advantages you may have genetically, it tells me that you had enough recovery, that you were getting good sleep that you were probably also moving enough to keep your energy flux high so that you keep the calories high and thus the calories could fuel what felt to your body like less of a diet. Right? Absolutely. I think people need to understand that because more and more I want to talk about that these days is is the idea that even though you're dieting, what's important on the diet is the deficit. But you don't want to you don't have to be in that deficit at a ridiculously low number of calories. Right? You could be on it at a higher number if you do these other things and sleeps a big one. Like I think you were pretty good with sleep, right? Yes, sleep is huge. Yeah. It's big, because I've seen people literally jump by 200 calories on their expenditure when they start getting more sleep. Yeah, you know. And so now if you're on that's 1200 versus 1400 calories.
Carol 31:50
Right, exactly. Yeah. And I think the other thing that made a difference for me was just my daily walks like I walk every single day after school, I stopped by the Greenway, and I walk for like anywhere from 45 minutes to maybe an hour if I have time. And I think that really helped me as well.
Philip Pape 32:06
We were averaging 10 12,000 or even a little more. I'm
Carol 32:10
probably about 12,000 Some days, maybe 15. You know, but um, yeah, I mean, walking is so underrated. It's like the best therapy. It's great. It is
Philip Pape 32:21
you're right. It has so many benefits besides just the expenditure. Yeah, you can listen to podcasts, you can think, what do you like to do when you walk?
Carol 32:29
Well, I of course, I love listening to podcasts, for sure. But I also really just love finding clarity in my walk. Like if I'm if there's something you have kind of like struggling with emotionally, you're trying to figure out that just being in nature really helps bring clarity, and it also just is such a great de stressor, it helps me feel so much better.
Philip Pape 32:51
That is good. You're speaking to me, Carol. You know what I do? Sometimes I will start off listening to a podcast. And then my brain starts to get distracted with some other thought that's been niggling there and just waiting, right? And I'm like, okay, stop the podcast and start to explore this. And I will literally talk out loud. Personally, as I do this, I will talk out loud in the middle of note, you know, nobody can hear me to kind of process through the thoughts. And you're right. It's kind of your own therapy. Great, great. Yeah, you can't do as well, I don't want to claim you can't do that while running. You probably you can to an extent. But there is that extra distraction of like focusing on the running to, you know, Sure, absolutely. All right, so then we transitioned to the maintenance phase, right, using a recovery diet, which just to clarify for folks is, is when you come back up to your current maintenance. And you can do it right away, or you can take a few days, but it's the it's not reverse dieting, which is kind of the older idea of like, slowly coming up over like weeks and not ever quite getting into your maintenance. So and you mentioned you we use macro factor, which lets you know what your expenditure is. So when you started your diet, it might have been x and now it's x minus whatever. That's your current maintenance. It brings its own challenges going to maintenance, doesn't it? Right? Physiological, physiological. So how did you manage it? Like how did you deal with that? How did you sustain your success coming out of the diet, so that you didn't just like binge and go back to your old ways, you know, and then so that the listener understands how to manage that transition.
Carol 34:23
All right, sure. Well, something just like struck a chord in me I was just like, I've worked too hard to get this far. I'm so invested in it. Like I'm not going to go and just blow everything up after I've worked so hard. And also have to say this is something that I didn't expect, like when I when I went into maintenance from the fat loss phase, I was just gradually increasing my calories because it was like a huge jump for me to go from like 1400 I don't know was it 2200 I think it was such a huge job. I could not physically eat that much food I got so also fast, I guess, because maybe my stomach shrunk. I don't really know. But it just was not possible for me to eat that much food. So like, I would get so uncomfortably full and I just felt awful. And then I'd have a stomach ache. And I'd be like, okay, not do that again. So I would kind of slow with pumping up my calories. But again, I am, I think it was also it's like, wow, I get to eat more of this, and I get to eat more fat. And this is so exciting and so great. Like, who gets to do this? And I just really, like I said, I just didn't want to blow the progress I made. And honestly, I knew that if I over ate, I would feel awful physically. And I just did not. I didn't want that. So
Philip Pape 35:42
yeah, yeah, so the part about upping your calories was for the the psychological and the biofeedback aspects, which are exactly the reasons we would do it that way, right, as we talked about on our call. And, but but just just so people know, like reverse dieting normally is intended to avoid over gaining weight, right. And in your case, we're simply avoiding you feeling terrible. By jumping into it, which is the right way, the right reason to come up not instantly by like you said it was something like 800 calories, because you were in a fairly aggressive deficit, it was the appropriate deficit for you, but it was fairly aggressive. And then the second part you mentioned was this idea of now all of a sudden, it just seems like a buffet of calories available to you, even though this is what's required to maintain your weight. And actually, it's probably gonna go up from there. As you recover. I mean, what, what were you? Were you thinking that you would like, not be able to eat enough at some point?
Carol 36:44
I honestly was, there were some days like, I'd be like, I'd be looking at microfactory being like, how your calories do I need to get to this? And my husband's like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm trying to eat more, but I just don't. But also, I do want to say, there is this piece of it as but you know, especially with women on the scale, like, I will readily admit, I had this little, you know, fear of like seeing the scale weight go up. And I did not want to see that. You know, it's like, I don't want to see it go up. And so I think also there was just this like, mental piece mental roadblock to get over and be like, it's okay, if it gives up. It's really,
Philip Pape 37:24
yeah, yeah. Because we did talk about and that's being aware, right, and being understanding of what's going on with the body, right? Because when we look at, if you gain two pounds overnight, I say this all the time, like, it doesn't mean you gain two pounds of fat because you would have had or eat by 7000 calories. Well, you're not even eating to your maintenance yet. So logically, and I know the logical brain motional brain, they fight a lot. Logically, that's not possible. So what's left, while we know it's left fluid, glycogen, the carbs the food in your gut, the food, you know, being digested, maybe inflammation, because you're training harder. And that's not even to count, you know, your cycle if you're a woman and other things. Right. So we talked about that. And if you're listening, and you're coming out of a diet, and you go back to maintenance, and you're doing it the right way, you're probably going to gain what, two to four pounds, most people maybe guys a little bit more than that. Is that about what you saw? Yeah, you
Carol 38:23
know, it's really funny. Um, I actually like, sometimes my weight would shoot up by a couple pounds. But then the next day, it dropped a couple pounds. Like in fact, that just happened recently, like my weight shot up by two pounds. It was after I had horrible insomnia, and I was stressing about going back. And then the next day, it was back down to pounds. So I'm I'm really like, I guess overall, maybe I maybe I've gained a pound. I don't know.
Philip Pape 38:48
Yeah, exactly. And and, uh, your, uh, your weight that actually does make sense, right, like being 120 a pound. Whereas like, a 200 pound guy, it might be two or three. Yeah, and the point is, it's like it's insignificant, and it also has nothing to do with fat. It's just you regaining the fluid. And now you're sitting there, you're just sitting there with all this food. And that's your new maintenance. And that's the beautiful thing, because you have muscle mass that's giving you this muscle mass and movement. Yeah, attributing to that.
Carol 39:15
Exactly. And it's mind blowing, because if you'd have told me like that I would be eating this many calories a day and not gaining weight. I'd be like, kidding. Like, you know, significant weight. You're choking. That's not possible. And it's just crazy to actually be living it out. Like,
Philip Pape 39:30
yes, pretty well. We see it all the time. And everyone's different, you know, again, everyone responds at different levels. And everyone has a different, you know, like, Carol is doing everything right, I would say, you know, for the most part, like doing all the things, quote unquote, optimally as best you can. And some people will struggle with some more of these things, but always know that it's in your power, like the choice is there that you have these toggles and that you can make the change. So important message I mean, super inspiring. Have you mentioned also that strength training has influenced your mindset and increase your confidence? Like I want to touch on the mental resilience part? Because I think that's really important. And I think you said, quote, gain a mental edge with the hard things in life. Can you elaborate on that?
Carol 40:15
Yes, that is so true. So it just, it has definitely brought me a lot more confidence. I've, I've never really had a ton of confidence in myself, and, and just my profession, I think, has made some of those things a little more challenging for me. Um, and so lifting heavy and just like being able to lift heavy things and get strong, just really changed my mindset to you know, I can do this like this, I'm not going to limit myself anymore, I think. I think as women, a lot of times, we like put self limitations on ourselves. Like, we impose these limitations that we cannot do XYZ. Why, like, just because we've never done it, you know, that doesn't make any sense. You can do anything you set your mind to. So I think the fact that I could, like, you know, say, for example, hit a PR on my benchpress was like, Oh my gosh, I can do this. I can do anything like I am capable. I'm strong, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally. And I can do it.
Philip Pape 41:26
Yeah, I mean, you'd never hit, you never pushed anything like that, above you in your life. Right. And now you did. So you did something to make that change. Yeah. I want to sit with that a bit. Because it's, you know, it's a, it's a cliche, right to say like, well, you can do anything you put your mind to, I'm not building what you said, what I'm saying, you know, people use that as a cliche, right. But there's something about when you're effectively by yourself, this is a solo activity. If you think about even though we're in a community, and you have coaches, at the end of the day, when you press that bar, it's you and your muscle fibers in your mind. Right, right. And you're like, Well, this is this is pushing stuff around, and I can change my body by pushing stuff around. Right? And how does that how does that translate to other things? Like, is there something else you mentioned the confidence at work and others, there's something else you noticed you changing how you approach it?
Carol 42:23
I think like sharing my opinion, and speaking my mind about things in the past, I'd always be a little hesitant. I'm so I'm a peacemaker, and I really avoid conflict, you know, just by nature. And so inserting my opinion, there could be conflict. You know what I do with that, but so I was always I was always so hesitant to do that. But now, I'm like, Yeah, I'm gonna say what's on my mind.
Philip Pape 42:50
Love it. Yeah. Love it just just from that, you know, that's awesome. That's great. Okay, so I was, I don't know, I don't know why I have this question in my notes here. But one of the three pillars of self determination theory, which we talked about with Eric helms a while back. The others are autonomy and competence, but one of them is relatedness, which is being part of a community. Okay. Now, I know I wanted to talk about this. How has been part of a community since we just talked about how lifting is a solo activity, but at the same time, everything you're doing isn't part of a community? How has that influenced your journey? And how could listeners find their community?
Carol 43:28
Sure, absolutely. Well, being part of the Wits, & Weights community has been like, it's been so supportive. It's really helped me grow like with like minded individuals, and feel like I have something in common. There's accountability, like when you did that shape up for spring challenge, it was so much fun. I loved that. And so it just gives you the impetus to keep going, when you're maybe not really feeling motivated. And I think I mean, there's so many groups out there, and I, I just, you know, on social media, whatever, on Facebook, there are so many groups out there that are just waiting for you to join, and they're there to help you. And so I say, just reach out, especially the Wits &, Weights, community, it's great. It's great. And also, like, you've learned so much from other individuals in the group, it's fine. I mean, you know, Alan, for example, who's in our community, he has taught me so much about mindfulness. And I love that especially as an educator, and so it's just you never know what you're going to end up getting from the group.
Philip Pape 44:39
Yeah, that's a good that's a great point. Just the idea that there's fresh perspectives, knowledge, and there's some characters you know, there's some fun people, some jokesters they're serious folks. We've got some people that are like really serious lifters and, you know, they'll, they'll kind of like the positive but the tumors away It'll let you know what you're doing wrong, which is fine, because we're all there. And it's kind of a safe space to help each other, or. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that. Yeah,
Carol 45:09
yeah. And something else. That's really cool. It's like, you know, form checks. Like, if I wanted to video myself and post it, I know that everybody would give me advice about my form on a lift. And then of course, like, you know, the the once weekly things, or maybe I don't know if it's once a week, but you always do a live recording weekly. And it's always on a topic that's pretty helpful, you know, like nutrition or fitness or
Philip Pape 45:31
my for sure. Oh, yeah, we're to continue with this infomercial here, because I don't want to over promote the stuff. But what Carol is talking about is, you could ask a question, and I'll answer it live on Friday. And we're talking about not just a generic question that I would answer on the podcast. But actually, your situation, like if Carol came in and say, this is these are my lifts, these are my macros this is this this, and I'm struggling with this, what should I do? And I'll give you a specific answer. So definitely, I don't know how many groups do stuff like that, but we are there to help. Okay, so what about, you mentioned stress a little bit before and chronic stress? And how this process helps with that? How did that work?
Carol 46:15
Well, it was a great avenue for some stress relief, you know, like just pushing around a bunch of heavy weight. It's really great. I mean, there is like, it's very different from like, running, but there is an adrenaline rush to it. You know, like, it just feels great. And so when I work out stress that way, as opposed to like ruminating on something or worrying about it, or, you know, it just, it solves a lot of problems for me.
Philip Pape 46:45
Nice, nice. So just the act alone of the lifting. distresses you cool. It does,
Carol 46:50
yes. Yeah. Yeah. It takes your mind off whatever you've been stressing about, you know, because you're focused on your lift.
Philip Pape 46:58
Yeah. Would you say? How does it compare to like a high rep, more endurance style lifting session? Because both I think both release endorphins, right, but running and endurance, we'll release more of those in a moment, but they also kind of wipe you out. How do they compare? Just so people kind of get the differences? Um,
Carol 47:17
how do they compare? I think, honestly, I think with lifting heavy, it's for me, like I feel more accomplished, might, after a run, I'd be like, Oh, that was a great run, you know, it was a great run. But after lifting heavy, it's like, that felt amazing. Like, it's just, I don't know, for me, it's just a different level of accomplishment.
Philip Pape 47:37
I'm with you. I'm with you. When you said that you struck deep in the heart of me, because you're right. Like, it's not a lot of reps. It's not a lot of volume. You take all this all these rest periods. If anything, sometimes when you get started, you feel like you're not doing much. But but then when you do that one lift that's heavier than you did last time. You do it successfully, like, whoa, like, I just lifted more than ever lifted my life. I mean, you do it again. And again. And again, you're like, This is something right? Versus just okay, I ran again, for half an hour, maybe I ran a little faster, right. Anyway, I could get a little cynical about this stuff sometimes. And I think there is there is a mechanism of chronic stress reduction just from lifting anyway, but from the muscle mat, like you mentioned, the adrenals and the hormones, there's all of that wonderful stuff. So I'm sure there's that. Right. What would you say to all the women over 40 Or anyone of any age, but you know, we're sometimes focused on that demographic, who are wondering how to get started and get the results that you got or the results that they're looking for?
Carol 48:39
Sure, absolutely. First of all, keep it simple. You taught you that. Keep it simple. Do what you can with what you have. So like if you don't have access to a gym, or barbells, for example, start with dumbbells. That's great. It's a great first step. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just start with something. You can even do your own bodyweight until you have dumbbells, for example, start doing something to get you on the path to success and it can little things you know, they add up over time. Like don't overdo it. Don't you know, Don't set yourself up for failure. Take rest days recover. Make sure that you know the importance of that and yeah, just start small go after it and you can do it.
Philip Pape 49:26
Love it. Do something Keep It Simple exam.
Carol 49:29
Also, I just want to say I know for me like it was kind of hard to figure out the structure to my fitness routine. Like I I'm a planner, I plan my training sessions out every single week, every Sunday afternoon I plan out what I'm doing for the week and initially when I got started with you I wasn't really sure like which program to do, what should I do and so you gave me some great options. And thinner leaner stronger is really awesome. And also right now I'm currently doing the program stone stronger that was put out by Katie and Heather off of stronger than your boyfriend? Yeah. And that one's great, too. And I mean, like, they're all good. And there's so many good ones out there. So find a program that you like and stick with it.
Philip Pape 50:10
Absolutely. And there's different ones for different people, even though I talked about a few that I think are highly effective, because for me, look, I'm lazy, like in the sense that I don't want to waste time, I want to get the results as fast as I can, you know, without burnout without all the other things. And so that's what I will recommend. But like you said, start with what you have. So I will definitely get people that say, but I just absolutely can't get access to a barbell no matter what, no gyms have it, I can't get it, I can't fit it in my house, this and that. It's okay. It's okay. Don't stress, like there'll be something. And I guarantee that once you get started with something that is way more effective than what you're doing now, even if it is not optimal. The results, like you mentioned before, are going to inspire you to get creative and figure out how to keep going. Right, right. So what about on the coaching side, so this is where again, I not everyone can afford a coach, of course, and there are a lot of people who are self starters and who are very self motivated, and they can read a book, and they can go and just do everything perfectly and have great discipline and willpower. The other 95% of people. Like you said, Maybe I've tried many things over the years, I'm in this camp as well tried many things over the years. And it wasn't till I started getting help from somebody that I started to make more progress. So if someone's on the fence about, about strength training in general, but hopefully we they're convinced of the value of that listening to the show, but on working with an online coach, for example, what's your advice for that person? Who's, you know, wondering about that?
Carol 51:45
Sure, yes, I would say just do it just like take the plunge and do it because I wish I had done it a long time ago, it would have saved me, you know, just some struggles that I had with previous attempts. Just do it because like for me, I have a tendency to overanalyze things. And if I'm out here floating on my own little island, I'll overthink everything to death. And then like spinning my wheels and not getting anywhere. But with you, I could just shoot your message, you know, and he would respond right away. And then I knew exactly what to do. So just do it. And you won't regret it.
Philip Pape 52:19
And it took you four months to get amazing results. Right? Yeah, I think of that in the scheme of your life, right years and decades of your life. And so anyone listening who's like, once you make the decision to do that, to accelerate the process, working with a coach or getting help, or whatever it is, whether it's in a group program, an individual coach, you know, something that your insurance pays for, I don't care. You know, think the results are going to come pretty quickly in relative terms.
Carol 52:49
Right? Yeah. It's an investment worth taking.
Philip Pape 52:53
Yeah. Because if I if I asked you who's listening six months ago, where did you say you'd be today? You probably said the same answer. You say today, not you, Carol, because you've gotten your results, right. But if someone if I say word, you know, what do you want to be in six months? Ask Did you ask yourself that question six months ago, and get the same answer in six months before they get the same, in which case, there's maybe time for a change. That's the way I look at my eight years spent in CrossFit not doing anything, that's what I like. Alright, so and then as far as working with a coach, how does someone make the most of that process so that they know that hey, from day one, they're actually getting what they need out of it?
Carol 53:35
I just to make the most out of it. Just you know, don't hesitate to reach out to your coach anytime, anytime, with anything. I mean, that I mean, coaches, especially you, you know, there's just a wealth of information. So it's like, take advantage of that, you know,
Philip Pape 53:50
yeah, I agree. I mean, I have clients who all they use me for is like an encyclopedia. And guess what, that that works for them because they couldn't have found that they couldn't have Googled or chat GBT that information and got exactly what they needed, you know, seconds. And I think that's important because I use all those tools as well. But I know that if I'm struggling as a business owner or as a, as a husband, or whatever, and I just need an answer. For me, that's gonna work. It's great to have a friend as a coach a community, even if it's, again, even if it's a free community, it doesn't have to be a coach, right? It could be in a community. Go ask, you know, Joe or Susan, right, like the question and they'll get an answer. Yeah, yeah. Surgery. So what has been the most surprising result of this entire process?
Carol 54:36
Um, the most surprising result? Um, well, you know, it was really surprising that everything happened so quickly. Like that definitely surprised me just with the weight, the fat loss. But I think just how stronger I've become and how I'm be able to lift heavy and that's that's really been surprising because ever since that first injury back with CrossFit, I just over and over and told myself, I can't lift heavy, I can't lift heavy, I can't lift heavy because XYZ happened, you know, and I mean, my legs still flares up every now and then but, but I had to jump that hurdle and just say I can do this. And so but I think that really has been the most surprising that yeah, I can I do, and I did it. And it's great.
Philip Pape 55:30
And how, what do you want to be doing when you're, say 90, in terms of strength? See now that now that you've transformed your identity in a way, think about it, like to the day you die? What do you want to be doing that? For, you know, that demonstrates your strength?
Carol 55:49
Yeah, well, I mean, I love to be lifting, I've never really lifting at 90 really love to be doing that just being active, you know, just staying active.
Philip Pape 56:01
That the wonderful thing is that you can, that's the thing that's out of this whole process, you can be that person and buck, the trend, Buck, the trend of the again, 90 95% of people we see walking around as they get old and frail illness sets in and disease and everything else. So in the short term, you've gotten the physique you wanted, but you've also gotten strength and health in the long term altogether, which is wonderful. Definitely. I'm inspired by you. So I know I am talking a lot not asking as many questions, Carol, but it's just wonderful to see this.
Carol 56:33
Thank you.
Philip Pape 56:34
So, you know, a question I'm going to ask next. It's the penultimate question of the interview. Okay, what question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
Carol 56:43
All right. So I've thought long and hard about this one. And like, one of the questions I get a lot from people, when I tell them about my routine, is how do you get up so early. And I do get up, I get up at 4am. Because I have to leave my house at 645 to get to work. And so I make my strength training a priority in my day. So I get up really early. But also, one thing that has made a difference for me is I read a book called the Miracle Morning by how Elrod you've probably heard of it. He's got a fabulous podcast. If you if you're not familiar with who he is, you should check him out. Because he has a really inspirational story. He was in a car accident, nearly died, was in a coma for like six days and made this transformational comeback. So he wrote The Miracle Morning, and he's got this acronym. I think it's savers. And it's like, so each morning, the goal is you set yourself up for success. By doing each of these little things as part of your daily routine. The S stands for silence. And so this is like meditation, that A is affirmations. So every day I write down a daily affirmation, you know, like I will, or I can or just something that is affirming, for me. The V is visualization. This is where you like, visualize yourself going throughout your day successfully. This is great when you're lifting heavy to visualize doing that. Yeah, the E is for exercise. Yeah, the E is for exercise. And of course, I do that in the morning. And then the R is for read. So he's a big, you know, like self help read a book about something you know, to help yourself grow. And then the S stands for scribe, which means right, so then write in a journal. So I read that book a couple of years ago, and it really just changed my whole morning routine. And also something else he points out is like, the night before, tell yourself that you're going to wake up ready for the day, like make that mindset change the night before. And like, even if you know that you're not going to be getting much sleep because you go into bed late, you know, tell yourself you're going to wake up and be ready. So it's really cool to like, be successful with all those things before you even leave the house. And it just sets up your day much differently than it otherwise would, at least for me. And so that would be my answer. If people ask me how I get up at 4am
Philip Pape 59:08
Ya know, love it, there's definitely there's like morning lifters and afternoon lifters, you know, and I read that book years ago too, and we all take something different from it, but you're you're right that like starting your day off on a good solid footing. Thinking Ahead, planning ahead sounds like you get your day ready ahead of time. And you're in control, right? You're just like in control of your outcome. And that's what this is all about. So definitely to all the 40 M lifters out there you know, take care of advice and still try to get to sleep you know at a decent time the day before because it will catch up to you.
Carol 59:41
Yeah go to bed at like eight so there's that yeah,
Philip Pape 59:45
I don't know if how lifts heavy weights so we got to get them you know, training but all the other stuff. So okay, where do you want listeners to learn about you and reach out to you?
Carol 59:54
Sure. Well, I am in the Wits & Weights community so folks are able to read reach out to me through there and I'll be happy to help you respond to any questions just support you. cheer you on in your journey.
Philip Pape 1:00:08
Yeah, so I'll include the link to that and then so folks can join and find Carol and if you can't find or just post or reach out to me and say where's Carol you know, so we can reach out to Purdue should be pretty obvious. Carol, this is fun. The time just flew by. I love everything about your story. It's just teaches us how resilient our our minds are and our spirits and how we can change at any age, no matter who we are, no matter where we're studying, no matter what we've done in the past. And just thank you so much for sharing your experience.
Carol 1:00:39
Oh, thank you. This was so much fun. It was an honor to be on your show.
Philip Pape 1:00:44
So much fun. Thanks, Carol.
Carol 1:00:45
Thank you.
Philip Pape 1:00:48
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