Are you torn between focusing on strength or endurance? Are you wondering if you can lift heavy while building stamina? Or maybe you’re struggling to find a way to improve both without sacrificing one?

Philip (@witsandweights) brings back Cody McBroom to show you how you can excel in strength and endurance without sacrificing either! If you're ready to optimize your training for both muscle growth and cardiovascular performance while setting high standards in every area of life, this will give you the blueprint to make it happen.

Cody McBroom, founder of the Tailored Coaching Method and host of the CHOOSE HARD Podcast (formerly Tailored Life Podcast), shares his unique approach to hybrid training, revealing how to balance your workouts to achieve impressive strength and endurance goals. Learn how Cody's fitness journey can help you build mental toughness, improve your fitness, and tackle seemingly conflicting goals.

📱Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes. https://witsandweights.com/free-call

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:35 Balancing strength and endurance training
8:17 Choosing hard for success
14:23 Cardio and long-term health
21:05 Mental toughness strategies
35:53 Impact of small decisions
39:12 Starting hybrid training
45:42 HIIT vs. low-intensity cardio
49:22 Programming and cardio volume
50:32 Functional fitness in daily life
54:53 Final thoughts on choosing hard
56:34 Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: tailoredcoachingmethod.com

• Podcast: tailoredcoachingmethod.com/podcast

• Instagram: @tailoredcoachingmethod

Episode summary:

Unlock the secrets of hybrid training with fitness expert Cody McBroom, founder of Tailored Coaching Method. Imagine excelling in both strength and endurance without sacrificing one for the other. This episode delves deep into Cody’s unique approach to balancing these two crucial aspects of fitness, drawing from his own journey and the experiences of renowned bodybuilders and CrossFit athletes.

Hybrid training isn't just about doing both cardio and strength exercises; it’s about finding the right balance that allows you to maximize your performance in both areas. Cody McBroom reveals the importance of optimizing nutrition and mental toughness to achieve your fitness goals. Nutrition plays a critical role in both muscle growth and cardiovascular performance, and understanding how to fuel your body properly can make all the difference.

One often-overlooked aspect of hybrid training is the benefit of cardio for muscle growth and overall recovery. Contrary to popular belief, cardio can enhance blood flow, improve energy systems, and boost cardiovascular health, all of which contribute to better muscle growth and work capacity. Cody shares fascinating studies that shed light on the evolving views of integrating more cardio into strength training routines. This episode will change the way you think about the role of cardio in your fitness regimen.

Setting realistic fitness goals while balancing life responsibilities can be challenging. Cody McBroom discusses strategies to maintain muscle and cardiovascular health, even when dealing with injuries or other setbacks. He emphasizes the importance of taking breaks for recovery and setting achievable goals that align with your personal and professional life. The conversation highlights the complexities of managing conflicting objectives, like increasing deadlift reps while training for a 5K, and offers practical advice on how to navigate these challenges.

Choosing hard tasks can significantly impact cognitive health and personal growth. Cody discusses the concept of "super agers" and how consistently challenging oneself can slow cognitive decline and enhance overall well-being. Activities like cold plunges and rigorous exercise boost neuroplasticity, dopamine, and serotonin levels, leading to increased happiness and productivity. This mindset of choosing hard extends to everyday decisions, influencing not only personal health but also how we interact with others and tackle life’s challenges.

Balancing work and personal life is another crucial aspect discussed in this episode. The story of a Netflix co-founder who reserved Tuesday afternoons for personal time serves as an inspiring example. The idea of choosing priorities wisely, even engaging in activities we may not enjoy, can have long-term benefits. Overcoming hard tasks now can prevent future regrets and foster a sense of extreme ownership and responsibility in various aspects of life.

Hybrid training offers a holistic approach to fitness and life improvement. Cody McBroom emphasizes the importance of starting small, such as increasing daily step counts, to create impactful habits. For those already active, incorporating both weightlifting and cardio into a well-structured routine can yield significant benefits. Strategies like using non-eccentric modalities, such as the sled or assault bike, are recommended for those with joint issues, highlighting the importance of thoughtful and intentional training.

Smart programming of cardio and strength training is crucial to avoid unnecessary fatigue. The modality of cardio—whether high-intensity interval training (HIIT) or another form—is less crucial than the overall volume for cardiovascular health. Recent research supports this view, showing that the key to effective training is balancing the different forms of exercise based on individual goals. Building work capacity through strength training can be as demanding as cardio, especially when performed intensely.

In summary, this episode is packed with actionable advice and inspiration to help you excel in both strength and endurance training, achieve a well-rounded fitness regimen, and lead a fulfilling life. Cody McBroom's insights into hybrid training, the benefits of cardio, and the power of choosing hard tasks provide a comprehensive guide for anyone looking to improve their fitness and overall well-being.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

📞 Send a Q&A voicemail

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been feeling stuck with your training, wondering whether you should get strong, build muscle or focus on endurance, and you've watched your gains plateau, leaving you wondering if it's possible to deadlift heavy and run fast without sacrificing one for the other, then this episode's for you. Today, we're sitting down again with Cody McBroom to uncover how you can not only balance strength and endurance, but potentially surpass your previous best in both. When you understand how to approach hybrid training, you can tackle your fitness goals with confidence, knowing that you don't have to choose between being strong and having stamina. So if you've been limiting yourself to just lifting or just cardio because you think they don't mix, what we're about to share will give you the blueprint to excel in both without sacrificing either one. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today Cody McBroom is back on the show to talk about hybrid training and setting high standards for yourself in the process.

Philip Pape: 1:10

Cody is the founder of Tailored Coaching Method, host of the Tailored Life podcast and a man on a mission to redefine what it means to be an athlete and a high performer in all areas of life. He recently set some ambitious goals for himself, including a 405-pound deadlift for reps and a sub-45-minute 5K. Today, you'll learn how to balance strength and endurance training to achieve seemingly conflicting goals. We're going to explore time-efficient strategies for hybrid training and how to optimize your nutrition, both for muscle growth and cardiovascular performance. You'll discover some ways to build mental toughness that translates beyond the gym, and how to set high standards without falling into perfectionism. We'll also discuss using hybrid training to lean into hard and take the path of most resistance. Cody, welcome back to the show, my man.

Cody McBroom: 1:58

Thank you, brother. I'm excited to be here and I'm excited to talk about these topics. I will say, man, I think I need to hire you to do my intros on my podcast, because you crush it every time. Man, that was phenomenal.

Philip Pape: 2:11

I appreciate it, man. No, I have fun with it. It's kind of like coming up with the titles that are not too clickbaity but enough to get your attention. You know, and it's well-deserved, and people want to know, like, what they're getting into today? I think we represented it well. I, what they're getting into today. I think we represented it well. I've been listening to your show for quite a while and, for those listening who want to really deep dive into the hybrid training, cody's been talking about this a lot lately, so definitely check out his podcast. But here's the thing, cody. Here's the main question, right? A lot of listeners think that they have to choose between being strong and building muscle or developing aerobic capacity and endurance. What would you tell them?

Cody McBroom: 2:47

You don't. I think you can do both. I think that, as you know, in our profession it depends on so many factors, right? So I always hate being the guy that's like, well, it depends, and then it doesn't give somebody a concrete black and white answer like they want. But the reality is, you know, I think that I always like to look at things in two lenses scientific lens and then also the just anecdotal experience. Let's just look at things. You know I've used this even with bodybuilding. People will talk about like well, I don't know about high carb diets or like all this cardio or anything that they and I'm like just look at bodybuilders. Like, just look at bodybuilders. What about insulin, you know, and insulin sensitivity? I'm like, bodybuilders inject insulin, so if it was making you fat, they wouldn't do it.

Cody McBroom: 3:25

Now, I'm not promoting that, I don't do that, I'm not. You know what I mean. So I'm not promoting it. But I think that's a. If we're being evidence-based, it's not just science, it's anecdote as well, right Combined. So I say that to say, look at CrossFitters. There's a lot of Jack CrossFitters. I like watching CrossFit games and stuff. You know what I mean. I think it's great. Those, they're freak athletes. It's awesome.

Cody McBroom: 3:49

But they have at least proven that you know, concurrent training, which is training for two modalities that have opposing goals or effects, can work, like you can do it, you know. And so the easy answer is yes, you can do it. The long answer would be you be. It depends on how much improvement you need in one or the other. So if somebody comes to me and they're on flatline on both and they want to improve both equally, I would tell them hey, I don't think you're going to equally improve both at the same rate. I think one is likely going to improve and increase at a higher rate than the other If you put more focus into that right.

Cody McBroom: 4:27

So for me, for example, like my training is much more geared towards endurance and conditioning right now, because I have a half marathon in like just under five weeks and I'm doing high rocks February 1st of next year. So I have like five months, I think, for that one. And if I need to work on anything in this hybrid journey, it's endurance. I've never been a runner. I've competed in men's physique bodybuilding twice, I've put a lot of people on stage, I've trained for photo shoots and always just focused on hypertrophy and building muscle Like. That's what I'm, I've been good at. So cardio for me was getting my steps in and, you know, on a treadmill to burn calories during a cut, which is an easy way to do it and it's very easy to recover from. I think it's a really smart way, but it's not really hammering the endurance component home. So two thirds of my focus volume training all that is going to be leaning towards endurance, because I need the most improvement there, while one third is going to be towards hypertrophy, just to maintain the muscle I have.

Cody McBroom: 5:20

This is the other side of it. How experienced are you? For me, I'm not trying to do both. I'm not trying to build both. Maintain one, build the other and I would say that most hybrid and I think this is a really, really important key because we know newbies can probably get results from anything right, You're new to it, you're going to jump into something, you're going to get results. So if somebody is brand new to lifting entirely, running entirely, yes, do both. You're probably going to do both. And as you get to like an intermediate stage, you're probably going to have to lean towards the one you want to improve more than the other, but at a level like myself. Like and I'm just going to call this out If I get shredded in the process of doing hybrid training, I look like a crazy athlete, which would be awesome, right, and it probably will happen, to be honest, because I'm burning so many more calories than I have in a long time.

Cody McBroom: 6:04

It's not hybrid training that got the muscle on my body, and I think that's really important. So, when we look at these people who are hybrid athletes online and people are like, oh, I want to look like that. I got to do hybrid training. Like well, hold on, like let's look back, because you know, if Five to ten years before they were strictly doing bodybuilding, they have laid a foundation of muscle way before they started running. So they just maintain that muscle during all the hybrid training and that's why they look like that while being a hybrid athlete, and I think that's something a lot of people miss, and that's even the case for me.

Cody McBroom: 6:34

I'm not going to sit here and act like this is how I'm building more muscle. No, when I build muscle, I'm doing more volume in the gym, lifting and less cardio, right, but I believe, like it's really easy to maintain muscle and research has shown that. And research has also shown, if you split up your training sessions by four to six hours, as far as like running and lifting, that's the safest way to be practicing concurrent training without having a negative impact on either one of them, right? So we have four to six hours between meals, in between stuff like that I'm going to easily be able to maintain my muscle, and if I look like I'm jacked while doing it, it's just because I maintain that muscle and I got leaner from burning so many calories. That makes sense.

Philip Pape: 7:14

It makes total sense to me and I was kind of in the trap of CrossFit years ago thinking if I start CrossFit and do CrossFit, I'll look like a CrossFitter right, and in reality the best of those athletes, right when you look at their routine there's a lot of training, a lot of strength training, there's an off-season, there's periodization. They split up the nutrition and it's funny because I went full circle and eventually, you know, I would got to the point where I would trash CrossFit, which is also not necessarily the reaction we want to have. What I hear you're saying is you can kind of have it all. You may have to focus on one thing more than the other, not necessarily to the exclusion of the other. Newbies will grow no matter what and you're not going to lose a lot of muscle. You're not going to lose all your gains just because you throw in cardio. And you can throw in quite a bit of cardio. Which, cody? I talked to a guy named Ben on the show and he puts in 60 hours of running a week and he puts in 60 hours of running a week and he's still jacked. He holds onto his muscle, even went into a cut early on in that and gained a little muscle, so you never know right. So what?

Philip Pape: 8:15

I think a lot of listeners are probably going to ask besides, are you going to lose your gains which you're like? No, you're not going to do, that is all right. What do I start with If I'm a newbie? That's one scenario. And then somebody who's been lifting, which is the majority of people listening to the show. You know what direction should I take, because you know, I see Cody, he's jacked. He's been doing this for years. Maybe he's been lifting for 10 years. Should I be doing one first, almost exclusively? Should I do both, or is that going to slow me down?

Cody McBroom: 8:50

People are worried because they hear this and like, ah, give me the nuance, cody, what should I do? Yeah, I think it's a great question, man. I think you know I've gotten that a bit too similar questions. I think that it all depends on what your like if this person was to look in the future and answer the question, what does the best version of you that you're after look like you know? And not look like just physique wise, but feel like, look like, act like you know, all that kind of stuff. And I think that determines what my answer would be and how much you should do.

Cody McBroom: 9:11

Because if we just look at what builds muscle right Mechanical tension, stress and tension placed on the muscle Volume is the metric right. So a lot of people say volume is the key driver to hypertrophy. It's not. Mechanical tension is the key driver to hypertrophy. Volume is the metric we use to track how much mechanical tension you're creating on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. So if you need, this is just a hypothetical number. Not everybody needs this much more advanced. People do 20 sets per muscle group per week in order to develop more muscle tissue, to build more muscle than you have. And now you're trying to improve your running. Well, do you have enough time during the week to do that? Maybe not. And then the second question is okay, well, are there some muscles you don't care about growing and or don't need to grow? Let's do less 10 sets per week on those 20, on the ones that you want to grow, maybe now that you have time.

Cody McBroom: 9:57

And this is me also letting people know when I run, I still lift in the afternoon nine times out of 10. Like this morning, I had a tempo run and I ran early, 6 AM, and I'm going to lift today at 3 30 PM, and it's not always easy to you know. Talking about the whole mentality thing, I call it choose hard. But like I have to choose hard, I didn't want to run this morning at all. I was tired but I did it and I'm glad I did. That's part of my goal, and I have to do two days in order to get enough of both to be where I want to be. So people have to understand that.

Cody McBroom: 10:28

Now, if somebody is asking this question, I go what's your future self look like? And they're like well, I want to be jacked, I want to be strong, I want to build muscle, I want to be lean. These are all characteristics that really don't need any endurance training. But maybe they say, but I don't want to lose my health and I want to be able to keep up with my kids and their soccer scrimmage, you know, and practice basketball, whatever it is, and at that point I would go okay. So really you need to train like you're training for physique goals, because that's your primary goal, and you need enough. Obviously, we can't ignore nutrition, but we're not going to really go down that road but, like, nutrition is a big key to health, but you need enough cardio and aerobic training in order to support health, in order to support enough endurance to keep up with your kid in a soccer scrimmage, right? So let's just define what that is, cause I'm trying to go run a half marathon, which is 13 miles, and I got thrown into it at a pretty quick timeline, partially because my friend was like oh, you'll be fine, do it with me.

Cody McBroom: 11:25

And I'm like all right, whatever. But after that I want to do high rocks. Eventually, I don't know if I'll do a full marathon, maybe I will, whatever it is. But there's a difference between I want to run 13 miles straight and I want an appreciable time. I looked up what a time is and I'm like, okay, I'm going to. And I talked to my friend, he's a runner. I'm like, screw it, I'll do a half marathon, screw the 5k. And so now I'm doing the half and I was like, what is the average male time, what is good? And if you get less than two hours, you crush it as an average person. So I'm like, okay, so I just want to get two hours. I get two hours and a half marathon and so that's a high standard goal. You don't need to run a half marathon if you want to keep up with the kids. You get what I'm saying.

Cody McBroom: 12:05

So I think that people get it confused and it's like, if it's just a health component, honestly you could go on one long run per week and you're going to get the health benefits. And I'll just add this too there was a cool study that showed and I love when they do studies like this they put somebody. They do this is because it's not like me versus you in a study, it's me versus me. So genetics, dna, like responsiveness, everything is controlled because it's just me and my right leg pedals and they're developing aerobic benefits in that leg, cause there's a lot to be said about just improvement with blood flow, mitochondria, all these things that do lead to better muscle growth and muscle activation.

Cody McBroom: 12:47

And so they did that on the right leg or the left leg, I can't remember which one it was and then they did single leg leg extensions like press stuff like that, and there was a more favor for hypertrophy in the leg that actually did the cardio and they did it and they separated all that stuff and what they contribute that to is the aerobic benefits that you get when doing cardio from a blood flow perspective, energy systems perspective, the cardiovascular nature of just recovering faster between reps, sets, days of the week, allowing you to deliver more oxygen to the muscle, build more, but also do more volume because you're recovering faster right. All these things led to more muscle growth, more volume being accomplished. So there's still benefit to doing cardio when it comes to trying to build muscle Right, and so I think everybody should do a little bit. But I run five days a week and I'm varying the distances and the paces and all, so you don't need to do all that right, unless you have goals of pursuing a hybrid journey, something like that.

Philip Pape: 13:37

I just I take everything to the furthest Good, it's good Cause then we learn from you. We're like okay, that's my goal, this is the pushing the limit. Where do I want to fall on that spectrum? Right, and there is this thought with a lot of people and I've even said this in the past and my tune has changed of like okay, if you're a lifter, if you lift heavy, if you get in the volume, you're also building your work capacity. You just got to walk.

Philip Pape: 13:59

But it is true to you, brian Borstein, brandon Cruz, a whole bunch of other guys who are like yeah, I'm kind of into this idea of more cardio. Now you know a little. More cardio, not just during fat loss, not just to burn calories, but because it seems to help your lifting and helps your recovery. Like you said, it gives you just general health and even surprising benefits that we're still learning in the research. And you don't have to become an endurance athlete unless that is your goal. Would you say so? Let me ask you this. So I did CrossFit for like eight years. It definitely helped with my conditioning tremendously, to the point where I can go long stretches of being a lazy fat ass and not doing any cardio at all Okay, and still feel like I'm pretty healthy and my resting heart rate and VO2 max are like right there. What do we know about the lasting effects of kind of training versus being detrained in a cardio capacity? Does that make sense?

Cody McBroom: 14:50

Yeah, you know I have mixed feelings on this because in one sense I do and I've noticed this too like I do believe that cardio adaptations happen quicker in the beginning as well. So typically your thought might be that, hey, well, if you improve quickly, you might have the opposite effect. If we look at dieting and metabolic adaptation, it kind of leads that you know a lot of people can. If we cut your calories and you easily lose weight and there's no problem because your metabolism slowly adapts, well, it's going to bite you in the ass on the way back up in the reverse diet, maybe right. And vice versa, you might struggle because I got to really cut calories to drop body fat. But if we increase calories in the reverse, your body adapts, your metabolism works with you, and then you might be a quote unquote hyper responder, which is really just you moving more as you consume more calories and not realizing it typically. But I say that to say I don't know if it works the same with cardio. I do believe that I mean I've adapted very quickly just from a standpoint of, like, my ability to improve my running has happened very, very quickly. I started getting plantar fasciitis and this is not the first time I've got. I actually got that in my physique prep my last bodybuilding show as well just from so much walking towards the end of an inclined treadmill. And I took a week off last week actually to just you got to just lay off. It's the best way to do it Ice and lay off. And I went back into it this week and I felt great. I felt just as good, if not better, and so I was assuming like I'm going to have to play catch up a little bit. It's only a week so it shouldn't do too much. But I figured, you know, I've never done much conditioning Like it's never been my thing. I've had to program a lot of it just because of clients and stuff. So I've learned a lot about it but I've just never enjoyed it because I suck at it and I don't think it's fun.

Cody McBroom: 16:33

But I do think that, to your point, I think the health benefits that you get can be easily maintained and it would be. You know, I think it's the same thing with muscle. We all know those guys who, like those old guys, that they might have a gut but they're just kind of jacked. Still. They got big shoulders, big chest, big back. You know, all that stuff is clearly like still there, their muscle doesn't disappear like that. You know, it's just one of those things I would imagine.

Cody McBroom: 16:56

Cardio is very similar. I think once you get those benefits, I think it's really good. Now there's also a lot that can counteract that. So great, you're doing a lot of cardio, but when you stop, maybe your cardiovascular adaptations don't just go away, but if you get actual fat, you're going to have negative health benefits from the fat you're carrying. And now if you go try to run, you're also going to have to run with 20 extra pounds. So you know, did your cardiovascular health diminish or did you just get fat? Good point, but I agree with you.

Cody McBroom: 17:23

I think in general I do think it's going to be easy to maintain. It's the same thing with muscle Muscle is very hard to build. It's easy to maintain for the most part. Fat loss is not easy to maintain. You got to like I would say it's easier to maintain than it is to do.

Cody McBroom: 17:36

But I say all this to say I think they're all kind of in their own box. I think they're all slightly different. I think it depends on how you're running and how you're programming it too, and I also think it depends on how long. If you did CrossFit for five years straight, that's an adaptation that's going to stick. You know, it's the same thing with muscle, like I just I like to tell people it's very unscientific, but if you build a lot of muscle and you're able to maintain it for quite a while because you're lifting, you're doing stuff, you've kind of solidified that mass on your body, it's going to be really hard to get rid of it. Like you're going to have to like literally starve for it, to like atrophy right or have a disease. So I'm not familiar with any scientific research that has actually studied this exact topic, but I would imagine, just based on everything else, that if you stick with it for long enough, it's probably going to stick around pretty long as well.

Philip Pape: 18:19

Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, muscle-wise, I think we're still coming to learn what the mechanisms are, you know, satellite cells and creating new muscle fibers and so on, which is pretty amazing, right? They're effectively there, You've created them and now they're there and they come back. Cardio I definitely have heard that the adaptation comes and goes or it comes quickly. So therefore, I imagine you factor that in to your strategy with you're trying to go after deadlift for reps, You're trying to go after 5k at the same time. We call these seemingly conflicting goals, but I think the way you've talked about it is they're not conflicting. You just have to fit them in and you have to balance them against your constraints, Like your time. You have time for two days, Maybe. Maybe the busy dad or the parent has 45 minutes a day, yeah, so yeah.

Cody McBroom: 19:07

That's kind of why I mentioned that too. I want people to know I say that stuff because I think there's a lot of people online who don't, and I want people to know that, like, behind this wall is a gym, it's like a literal 2000 square foot gym that I film content and do that stuff. So for me to not be able to do it two a day, it would be kind of ridiculous. I would have to be, you know, like so busy that it would be, you know it would be impossible. And I'm blessed my wife is a stay-at-home mom, so that helps me a ton. I don't have to pick up my daughter from school because my wife does. So it's like I wake up at 5 am. So don't get me wrong, I get up early and I start early, but I'm home at 5. And that includes my due session. So I point that out because I have expectations for myself that are a lot of times greater than the expectations of my clients, cause I'm realistic with those things.

Cody McBroom: 19:43

And the other thing is I've done a 405 pound deadlift for multiple reps, and I say that to say not because it's like super impressive, but because my goal isn't to like it would be different if I was like the most I've ever done is three, 15, but I'm going to run a half marathon and I'm going to increase my deadlift by 95 pounds or 85 pounds, whatever it is, and like that's unrealistic, right. And so I say that because I'm trying to get back to be able to do that without hurting my back. Because what got me into the hybrid journey was I hurt my back and it was like I'm not deadlifting right now because my back hurts and I messed up my lower back. I have to go through some, you know, recovery, some mobility. I got to start shifting my training volume a bit to not do so much on my body and if I do all this right, I can pursue this hybrid journey but also I can recover my back and be able to deadlift heavy again for a few reps.

Philip Pape: 20:34

That's really the goal. Yeah, I feel you on the back too. Same thing If I go too heavy and too much volume. At my age, the back feels it, but that doesn't preclude having a 405, 425 plus deadlift if you do it right. Shout out to all stay-at-home moms. By the way, my wife's also a stay-at-home mom. We homeschool our kids and I'm blessed and I know you are too.

Philip Pape: 20:48

I'm so grateful that that leaves me. It frees me from a lot of things that a lot of other guys have to do. So we get it. But again, if you're listening to this, you have your life. That is a constraint that someone else doesn't have, and vice versa. So you've got to work with what you have and personalize it, which I know you're a big fan of. So let's talk about the mental strategies, then, for I'll call it an extreme physical goal, right? Because at the end of the day, a small push in a direction takes a lot less of that mental effort than going to the extremes. You're talking about pushing through barriers, leaning into hard. Let's talk about your phrase the path of most resistance. What does that mean? What are we trying to accomplish? And are we talking about friction? Are we talking about something very controlled and deliberate to get there.

Cody McBroom: 21:34

Yeah. So I think there's a lot of things that we can unpack with this and even to just directly tie it to what we just got done talking about. You know, I actually posted about this today. It's a really interesting thought. As life goes on, you get more busy, you get more responsibility. So you go from having really no bills as a young to having bills to having to work, to not just working and putting in hours but actually developing a career. Then you have a marriage and then you have kids and you eventually have a mortgage. Your time gets limited, right. So when I think of it like this too is like hey, if you're like man, I just don't have time right now, maybe we'll calm down this Like you're never gonna have the time, Just make time now because you make time for what you value most, right, I'll be honest, there's a lot of things I don't do nearly as much of as other people do, and that's because I chose these things instead of those things.

Cody McBroom: 22:24

I chose to build a company. I chose to like be in touch with my clients. I chose to hang with my daughter and my wife really every moment that I'm not working, instead of going and drinking with the boys and going on trips and doing these things because I knew I can't build the company I want to build and go have fun with all my friends and be a great dad. We're limited to how much great things we can do. I chose these great things and so every once in a while I do, and I have a lot of friends that I try to stay in touch with and they know that they respect it now, but that's the path I chose. So I say that to say we all have time. We just have to make time for the things that we prioritize and want most. What I prioritize most is my girls, my wife and daughter, my fitness and my business, and those come before everything else. And some people will listen and think that that's not balance. That's fine. Balance isn't about time. Balance is about spending your time on earth doing what you love and what you get value from and what you can give value back with, and those are the things that I get value from. So, anyway, I think that this whole idea of making time is really important for people to understand, because you're not going to get more as you age, you're just going to get less until you retire and then by the time you retire, you're not going to care about your deadlift or your abs, you're just going to be retired and chilling.

Cody McBroom: 23:36

But with regards to leaning into resistance and all this stuff, I kind of honestly, it was a really cool kind of inception. I started just saying choose hard when, like, I had to make a hard decision and I didn't want to, but I knew I had to, and then I would do it. And then it's like choosing hard makes me better. And then I started like kind of saying it to clients when I would notice they did it. And then I started getting some people that picked up on it and actually like DM me and they would just, hey, I just want to share, I did this after your podcast and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it would be like hashtag choose hard in the DM. I was like that's really dope. And then so I changed my broadcast channel on Instagram to choose hard daily drip. And then I went and trademarked it, cause I was like this is like let me see if anybody has this. Nobody had it. So I'm like dope.

Cody McBroom: 24:18

So I look at it. Is there's Nike, just do it. There's Taylor coach method choose hard, right, and because and this is the part with resistance, right I think that every decision has a hard component. It's really about choosing hard today so that you can have easy tomorrow. But if you choose easy today, which is less resistance, it's comfort. It's being complacent, right, like that's the easy path. Now it's going to lead to difficult things later. Right, like that's the easy path Now. It's going to lead to difficult things later, right? If you choose the non-active route, cause it's easier to be lazy, it's easier to eat packaged foods, easier to eat whatever, it's easier to not meal prep, whatever it is that's going to lead to difficulty in your life. You are going to gain weight, you are going to be unhealthy, you are going to be less confident, like we. The list goes on. We know this.

Cody McBroom: 24:59

The hard thing is doing the assault bike. The hard thing is going to the gym in the morning. The hard thing for me was running at six in the morning this morning. And it's in Washington state, so it's cold here. I hate it, but I got to do it. You know, and it's literally September 4th, I think it should not be this cold already, but it is so.

Cody McBroom: 25:15

But I went and did it because it was hard, and so those things make everything easier, because now, every hard decision that I don't have a choice with because there's things in life that come up that are hard decisions to make, hard conversations to have and you don't get a choice this is your only option, right? Those are going to be easier for me to handle and I'm going to handle them with confidence and with poise, because I consistently chose hard and there's a difference between doing hard and choosing hard, and I want people to understand that when you choose hard, something happens in your brain. There's actually a part of your brain that literally develops and you will literally. They call them super agers. I was listening to, actually Andrew Huberman was talking about and I just started going on this rabbit hole. I actually just listened to this I think it was on Joe Jones Parks like a week ago and can't remember the part of the brain, but there's a lot of research that I was already digging into on this. But one of the fascinating things that he said that I liked was they call them super agers and it's basically a reversal of these cognitive declines.

Cody McBroom: 26:10

Right, it doesn't mean like, oh, you're in reverse time and age differently, but you slow down the likelihood of decreasing productivity, decreasing memory, decreasing your chances of getting Alzheimer's and all these things, just from challenging yourself as crazy as that sounds. So if you're doing a cold punch, you're challenging yourself. You're going to live longer, like as crazy as that sounds. So if you're doing a cold punch, you're challenging yourself, you're going to live longer. As crazy as that sounds, you're developing things in your brain. There's also a component of neuroplasticity. It helps with dopamine, serotonin, all these things. You're going to be happier, you're going to be in a better mood. You're also going to accomplish more in life because things are going to come up and you're going to easily make the right decision without even thinking twice because you've been consistently choosing hard, and choosing hard today makes choosing hard in other realms way easier to do. And so I think that my goal with it and it started with again with our clients and then people who are following me, and I'm just really trying to just spread as much as I can now is if you can get more people to choose hard in their day-to-day. I just think that, one, everybody's going to be healthier. Two, everybody's gonna accomplish their goals more. And three, I do think everybody's gonna generally be more fulfilled in life, because the hard thing could be.

Cody McBroom: 27:12

Me running this morning was three and a half miles and it was a tempo run, so that middle I think it was 1.9 miles in the middle was a really hard pace. It was a seven-minute mile, which which is I'm like pushing it after already running a mile warm up I was dying but like that was hard, you know, and easy was coming up soon, and then I know I have a seven mile run on Friday. That's going to be a little easier because I did these other ones first, and it doesn't just have to be this extreme goal though. So, for example, when I this sounds funny, but this is if you can program whoever's listening, if you can program whoever's listening to this, if you can program your brain this way and gamify it, this is how things really start to shift and this is what I've noticed my dog is like.

Cody McBroom: 27:53

So when we got my dog, when he was a puppy English bulldog Bubba, we got him and my wife wanted him and my daughter was four, I think, and we didn't experience terrible twos, it was terrible fours, and so she was just wild at that age and so, like I remember the, it was like literally day one. We got them on Sunday. I went to work on Monday and my wife texted me and was like I can't do it. We got to bring the dog back. I'm freaking out Like this is nuts. I was just like, hey, I'll bring him to work, I'll figure it out, he'll be fine. So he Just row with me, he's my guy. Then we got a new facility and I was like I don't want his drool everywhere so I left him at home. But when I get home he is ready to play like a little kid. And there's days where he brings his chew toy and he's strong, he's a big boy, he's an 80-pound bulldog.

Cody McBroom: 28:39

I'm like I want to play tug of war. I don't want to, would go away because he's a good dog, he listens, I say stop and he'll go. That would be easier for me to do and I can just relax. Or I could do the thing for the dog that I bought and I'm here to take care of. That's a hard decision.

Cody McBroom: 28:50

When my daughter wants to play Barbies, there's a lot of times I don't want to be Ken. But I could do the hard thing and I could say yes and I could be Ken and be enthusiastic about being the Ken doll when I don't want to. That's a hard decision that I make and that's a very simple one. You know what I mean. Like I could have been tired coming to this podcast, I'm like it would be hard for me to be fired up, but I'm going to choose to be fired up because I'm going to fake it a little bit and then I'll get fired up, which wasn't the case. I was fired up to be here, know it's kind of like in the matrix, the red pill and blue pill.

Cody McBroom: 29:24

In the matrix, Neil gets the opportunity. Do you want to take the red pill or the blue pill Right? So to me, choose hard is one of those pills, and every single day there's countless times where you run into a situation, you run into a conversation, you run into a decision you got to make, and there's the blue pill and the red pill. Choose hard. You just might change the outcome of what's going to happen. You just might shift how your brain works. It just might have a trickle effect that not only impacts your life, but it's going to impact somebody else's life, depending on what that decision is.

Tony: 29:52

My name is Tony. I'm a strength lifter in my forties. Thank you to Phil and his wits and weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 30:37

Yeah, I just want to rip off the headset and just like go do all these things right now. Man, it's so motivational. But seriously, it sounds like not choosing hard is where the regrets are made in life. That's what I'm getting from that. Like people who you know, when you regret things, you look back and you're like it's probably because I didn't choose heart in many cases, yeah, and you really hit me there with the daughter or with, you know, with kids, because I feel the same way. It's like I could be really busy, focused in my work, working from home, and my daughter comes up and is like look, I made this thing for you, or I want to show you something, or do you have time for a game, and it's like that's what it takes to choose. It seems like such a simple thing, but it's. She's going to remember it the rest of her life, especially if it accumulates with multiple decisions like that through your life. So when it's so valuable to take even the small things that to some people are harder than others, like we're not judging you as a listener of what's hard to you. So, for example, if you've never meal prepped and you decide to take that you know hard step on Sundays of like carving out an hour for meal prep and now all of a sudden realize that the rest of the week gets easier and the stress goes away. You're bearing the fruit of that hard, you know hard morning walk when you don't currently get off your seat all day could be the hard thing for you. So it's like expanding that comfort zone and so on.

Philip Pape: 31:50

There was a story one of my other business coaches talked about the co-founder of Netflix, how he would reserve his Tuesday afternoons. I don't know if you've heard this story. Every day at Tuesday he would leave at 4 p, 4 PM or to hang out with his friend at the bar or whatever. When he was single and then when he was married, it was like time to go home to see his kids and for his whole career he left at 4 PM, whereas you know, the classic line from entrepreneurs is you know work a hundred hours a week, right, like your great thing is your career, so forget everything else. And you're saying that even though you're limited to an amount of great things, you do choose them wisely, like choose family, purpose, whatever it is. Yeah.

Cody McBroom: 32:28

Yeah, and there's no judgment for those things being hard, like you said. Like I kind of sound like a dick by saying like I don't want to play barbies. Like what dude, you have a daughter. What do you mean? It's like okay. So any normal dude in their head in the moment doesn't want to enthusiastically be kin, but of course I do it.

Cody McBroom: 32:41

But there's a lot of times and I'm guilty of this too Like not right now, sweetie, like let's not, I've a hundred percent done it Right, and then I've felt bad about it later or I've like shifted the moment, like actually you know what? Okay, right, but to your point, that regret thing is so true, man. Like how many times have we heard like the stories of regret? Or Gary V went to the nursing home and talk to these people and they all regret Like I wish I would have asked out that girl. Well, why didn't you? Because I was lacking confidence and it felt hard to ask her out. I didn't know what to say. It felt hard to come up with something to say Okay, that's your hard thing. You know. It applies to so many different aspects of life and that's why I love it so much, because it really is hard, but now that person lives with the hard of regret. So again, it's hard now for easy later versus easy now for hard later and just not falling in to that comfort zone and a quick story to share about it bleeding into kids and all that stuff.

Cody McBroom: 33:34

But one of the things that I've always done and I actually look at this kind of like it's extreme ownership is what I looked at it as and I'm like I'm going to start doing this is picking up trash. And it's not like I walk around with one of those like things and poking picking up trash. But if I walk by a piece of trash that I can physically grab and like it's not like a tire on the side of the road, right, like it's just trash, I'm going to pick it up, because if I walk by it like if and it's the idea that if I do this, I'll be able to practice this extreme ownership in anything so if I'm walking by the dishes and it would be easy for me to get them done, but I don't feel like it, but it would make my wife happy, I'm going to do it real quick, Right, it's because if I have the power to do so and change something, I do it. That's what extreme ownership is. It's not my responsibility, I'm just taking ownership of it because I can do something right. So my thing was like picking up garbage, so like, even like to the point where I've uh, I got caught on one of the cameras with my neighbors, like I walked by and it was like a slurpy lid in their driveway and I walked but looked at, I walked by and I got like 10 feet away and just stopped and was like turned around and I went and grabbed it, cause I just I didn't feel like it, but I I was like in my head I'm like, oh, dude, you just walked by. You could have grabbed it. Dude, what are you doing? What are you doing?

Cody McBroom: 34:41

And then I had to turn around and get it and my daughter started picking up on this and we were driving by during Christmas last year and this couple has this nativity set, you know, with like Jesus baby and the stuff, and it kept blowing down in the wind and I would drive by and I'd stop, get out of my truck, walk out, push it into the grass, because the wind would blow it over, get in my truck and drive away. They're not out there, they don't see me do anything. My daughter kept seeing it and so she saw me going out of my way. She saw me stop in the middle of the road and drag somebody's garbage can in because I saw it and I was like, well, we're not going to be late to school, let me do it.

Cody McBroom: 35:20

And one day I was pulling out, stop, screamed. And it freaked me out. So I slammed on my brakes in the cul-de-sac. I'm like what? And she was like, oh, they're garbage, you gotta go get it. And I'm thinking I was like, sweet, we're going to be late. And she was like you can leave, it's on the ground. And I'm just like, okay, stop. And I went. That's my point with saying like you might choose hard and it has a trickle effect that somebody might see you do that and you never see them again, but you don't know the impact that that could leave on them and what they end up doing with it.

Philip Pape: 35:50

I think anytime you make that choice the red versus the blue pill, like you said it doesn't only change your neuroplasticity. I think it has a ripple effect. It has an effect on people watching you and it also has effect on the things you will then do that then have an effect on people. It's almost like an exponential, internal, exponential flywheel, if you will. In one realm. You start to build a skill, you start to do something hard, you get better and better at it. Now you want to tell people. Now people see you doing it, now you're talking more about it and before you know it it's just like bled out in a positive way just to the world. Really, and we're getting kind of philosophical here. But I think this does come down to why we do these things physically, because there's also mental translation.

Philip Pape: 36:36

And then I love the whole kid analogy because my mom used to do that with the trash. She used to do that and I've always had that gut reaction. When I see trash I'm like I can't have that. There. To the point, cody, where I was hiking and this group was ahead of me and this guy like tosses a can into the uh, into the woods. And I actually called him I said are you going to leave that there? And he's like, oh no, I'm going to come back and get that. And I'm like I'm just thinking, okay, I'm just going to hold my cool, I'm going to grab it and throw it away myself, but uh, it's a funny story, but it did, it's it's.

Cody McBroom: 37:00

That's awesome and it does trickle down like that. And I think that one thing that I will point out with the research on some of that't know if this is because it literally causes a greater effect when it's physical or if it's just that the studies done on this were primarily physical Cause it's also a lot easier in a study. I'm sure to be like, okay, we got to make these people do the hard thing and see what happens Probably going to be physical, you know, getting a cold plunge, like conditioning something, but they do see a great effect when we challenge ourselves physically. So you know, pushing yourself on the gym, pushing yourself on cardio, even pushing yourself with a diet. They even had research with these super agers and these people that they were showing people are more likely to be successful during a diet. People are more likely to lose the weight in a weight loss journey. People are more likely to accomplish the strength goal and in these different journeys and sustain those things when they actually did so in a way that challenged them.

Cody McBroom: 37:56

So it's not enough to lose weight, it's not enough to diet and make it so easy and this is my problem with like flexible dieting can go too far where it's like one. It's creating false belief. It's never that easy, you know. But also you should challenge yourself. It's okay. You know what. You should eat clean, you should meal prep, you should do some cardio, maybe just for the fact that it's going to create some discipline and that discipline is going to carry over and do something greater for you in your other areas of life. But you learned it from dieting and I do believe that fitness and nutrition are the catalyst for changing everything else in your life, because it's the easiest and safest way to get somebody to really push themselves and challenge themselves.

Philip Pape: 38:38

And it creates these positive effects everywhere else. Yep for sure. Yeah, and the thing about dieting is there are a lot of counterintuitive things like that. People who start diets more aggressively tend to maintain the results better, right, according to evidence. Little things like that, and so I've also tried to incorporate that. But I've also been accused, like you said, of saying well, we're going to make this a lot easier with flexible dieting. That's not really the framing we necessarily want for it. It's more of we're going to take a different approach. You know, that actually gets you the results effectively and efficiently. It may be hard, it may require effort, but the effort is going to pay off. Like the goal is the effort pays off. We don't want to spin our wheels and like do a lot of effort for nothing. However, even when something fails, you still learn from it, which is important. Yeah, so tell us about. Let's get back to hybrid training a little bit.

Philip Pape: 39:18

If someone's listening and saying, okay, I want to incorporate some of this. I want to be a badass like Cody and get mental toughness through the physical side. Maybe I'm already lifting weights, which most people are listening, are doing that. Maybe they're working out four days a week. They've got a little bit of time. They want to do some more cardio. Where should they start?

Cody McBroom: 39:34

Yeah, I think that I mean, let's start from ground zero, step count. I would literally approach it this way. If somebody came to me and they said that and I'm like cool, like let's look at your steps, and their steps were 2000 a day, I'm going to say, hey, you're like, you're sedentary, you know you're, you're going to be wrecked, like it's going to. Really, you're going to have so much soreness You're going to be. You know, and this is the big thing, right, this is a moment where we go screw it, choose hard, start with two miles every day, you know. Okay, then they're going to be so sore that they're going to be like screw this guy and screw choosing hard. So we want to leave a good impression. So I'm going to go hey, what's the lowest barrier to entry? That's going to One. It is going to challenge them, it's going to be harder, but it's also going to have an adaptation. You're stepping 2,000 steps? Cool, we're going to do 5,000. That's more than double what you're doing right now. I promise you, they're going to have to schedule time to either go on mini walks, they're going to have to first not hit 5,000 multiple days in a row to realize, holy shit, I got to figure this out and plan it and schedule it ahead. They might even have to schedule in some treadmill time and walk on the treadmill, but that's what I want. I want them to have to go out of their way and do something, because right now they're not doing it. So we start there.

Cody McBroom: 40:46

Let's say, somebody's like and this is very common in our industry already stepping 10,000 steps a day, already stepping 10,000 steps a day. They're intentional about it. They listen to podcasts like ours. They know what to do. They're doing some of that stuff. Well, this person I'm going to ask do you have any running experience? I have some clients that they want the cardiovascular benefits, they want the hybrid benefits.

Cody McBroom: 41:04

But you know and this isn't always an issue I've had multiple knee surgeries, but maybe their knee surgeries were worse, maybe they. You know, I luckily didn't have to do this, but, for example, I tore my meniscus multiple times and one of the times they told me we might just have to take it out. It's like it's just ripped shreds. We're probably gonna take it out. You'll have bone on bone Five years later. You'll get a knee replacement. Thankfully they salvaged it. But there are people where they just have to remove the meniscus is like a pad between two. It's just going to be bone on bone. That's going to hurt. Maybe they can't run.

Cody McBroom: 41:33

Okay, what can we do? Well, we can do the assault bike, we can do the sled, we can do these modalities that are non-eccentric, right. So non-load bearing on the joint, it's just a concentric contraction. So for people listening who don't know what that is, if you're doing a squat and you're going down that negative, that's eccentric. Concentric is the way up. Well, the eccentric is what's overloading the joints. More. So if we remove that, because every time you run, every step is eccentric loading on the joints, right. So we can remove that by doing-.

Philip Pape: 42:02

And it causes a lot of soreness too, is a good indication. Bingo.

Cody McBroom: 42:04

Yeah, yep, more muscle damage. It's going to be more tension on the joint, the tendon ligament, all that. So we can remove that and do a sled, do a bike, do the road, do a bike, do the road, do stuff like that. That's just purely concentric. There is an eccentric movement but there's no load on that eccentric movement. You pull the sled by pushing your feet into the ground and stepping back and then it's no load. You reset your step right. So we do that.

Cody McBroom: 42:25

But we target the heart rate, we target the duration, we target the distance in meters, we target, whatever it is calories burned. That's still going to have the same exact benefits from an aerobic building perspective. And I want to make that clear because a lot of people don't get into this stuff because they hate running. I always hated running, but I own a sled and I have turf and I still made a point once a week still going to do some sled work. I did the very minimal because I don't enjoy conditioning. But I would still jump on the assault bike, I would still jump, even if it's high intensity, whatever. So doing something like that, one, two days a week, going from the step count to let's add one or two days. You're going to adapt quick, so maybe we add one day, then we add a second day. Then we either decide okay, you're lifting this is very common Four days a week, upper lower split. So we added one cardio. Now we add two, so you're doing six days a week of activity. Do you want to do two days? Or are you happy with this? And if they're happy with that, honestly we can A progress those two sessions by changing the tempo. So it's like hey, right now, this is a really easy way to do it.

Cody McBroom: 43:23

For running, let's say you're going to run 30 minutes, max distance in 30 minutes, but control your pace. You shouldn't be. This is aerobic. I want minute one to be the same pace and speed as minute 30, right, we're trying to sustain it. Most likely that's not going to happen because it's hard to pace it perfectly, but we're sustaining that pace, staying in, you know, let's say, 70% of max heart rate, kind of in that aerobic zone. Do that next week.

Cody McBroom: 43:45

We're going to say, hey, what was your like, how many miles did you get? Now we want to try to increase that. We either go 40 minutes, we get further distance, or we go, hey, increase your pace so you accomplish 2.5 miles instead of 2.2, whatever it is, and we can just progress to just like a linear periodization. We can't do that forever without adding more days of running, but we can progress it a little bit in that regard. Then maybe we do some tempo running.

Cody McBroom: 44:07

Hey, warm up with one mile, then you're going to increase your. This is exactly what I did today Warm up with a mile and then for 1.9 miles for me, but it could be a mile for somebody else increase your pace. So my half marathon pace is maybe a minute slower than what I'm running right now, but I'm only doing it for 1.9, right, and then we do a cool down, right. So there's ways to vary it. But truthfully, I think somebody could build up to two days a week and be totally fine there. If they desire doing more or running a half marathon or something, you should probably be running three to four days a week. But if you're just looking for hybrid benefits conditioning benefits that we've been talking about I see nothing wrong with doing these other models and a lot of times I recommend it because it's so much easier on joints that we're not going to worry about injuries or overuse injuries and just like really just breaking down tissue, tendons, ligaments, joints and causing pain, because we're doing these in safer modalities, if that makes sense.

Philip Pape: 44:59

Yeah, it makes total sense. I like the application of form of progressive overload or understanding. There's stress, recovery, adaptation there, even when it comes to cardio. And so, wherever you are now, what can you do, both from a time perspective, but also from an ability perspective or any physical limitations you have? There's no excuses, right, you can find something among all of those. They even have, you know, for folks that have certain limb issues or disabilities, they have special, you know, different equipment for that. Start with a step count, make a decent jump, that's, I'll call it, hard but achievable and then, if you're already doing that, add in one to two days of concentric, primarily tight movements. You don't even have to run at all, which is great, cause a lot of people are like I don't want to do that. Where does hit fit into this?

Cody McBroom: 45:45

Yeah, and I would definitely start by saying don't turn your weight sessions into a hit session. You know, I think there's probably people who I mean, I got this at the first one. I did like a hybrid Q and a and it was like what's the difference in hybrid training and CrossFit? It's like, well, crossfit's a sport, so there's one thing, but two, hybrid training is also not a circuit training class, so like that's not what we're talking about here. And hybrid is concurrent, which means we have one session that we are trying to accomplish a goal. Strength means we have one session that we are trying to accomplish a goal.

Cody McBroom: 46:16

Strength muscle, whatever it is, train for that. So do your leg press, do your squat, do your bench press, whatever. Take a long rest. There's times where you can superset things. I have a program I'm running right now and I do what's called strength circuits. I go from a trap bar deadlift to a barbell, bench press, to a row. Those are less fatiguing exercises, less demanding exercises metabolically, neurologically, mentally, everything. So it works Like if I was to do the bench press, the row and then try to do a tri-bar deadlift, probably hurt myself. There's an order and there is a very fast pace, but then I take a long rest afterwards and I'm actually what I'm trying to do is express strength while under fatigue, and I'm doing that intentionally because I'm training for high rocks and I got to be able to do these exercises while I'm metabolically fatigued. But for most people, like we're training like a bodybuilder and then at another time of day you're going and running right, so we separate them completely.

Cody McBroom: 47:03

As far as HIIT goes, I think that personally, I'm just not a huge fan of HIIT. To be honest with you. I think that it was great. When it first came out, it seemed like it was this thing that was better than low intensity cardio. I would disagree. I think that low intensity cardio is I shouldn't say much better. They both are going to give you cardiovascular benefits, so they're obviously great. But I think that you're going to get more health and aerobic benefits, I would imagine, from low intensity cardio. Most research shows how beneficial staying in that sustained aerobic zone is. The nice thing about HIIT is that you can get some of those benefits still, obviously, and it's way shorter.

Cody McBroom: 47:38

So if somebody, I would say the best time to use that is for somebody who wants to lose fat and they're not experiencing diet fatigue. So, for example, somebody is we're starting the diet this week, we can add in a day or two of HIIT cardio and it's 10 to 20 minutes total. It is very high intensity but it's short enough, it's not overly fatiguing and you haven't been in the diet long enough that you're really having trouble recovering because your lack of calories coming in. Which, if somebody is on week eight of consistent dieting and we're like now, we should add HIIT cardio, maybe not, because they're already fatigued and they're probably already a little bit tired. Let's just increase their step count or program low-intensity cardio and just walk on an inclined treadmill. You know, I think that's probably going to be your better bet.

Cody McBroom: 48:19

And if we really like get into the science of it too, I would venture out to say high-intensity intervals are so similar to strength training If you're training with hard intensity, that you're not getting the variability of training different energy systems.

Cody McBroom: 48:32

So when I go in the gym, if I do a heavy back squat for five reps, I'm probably squatting for 10 to 20 seconds, I don't know, and then I'm going to take a few minute rest. So my heart rate goes through the roof. Heavy load, a lot of tension, a lot of focus and then I'm going to chill and I'm going to bring my heart rate down, all those things down, and then I do it again for four sets. Well, technically, you know, and so I would rather do a cardio modality that is going to produce a different benefit rather than just doing the same one, especially because anaerobic training, which is this high intensity model and what the energy system you're going to train during strength training, it is more fatiguing, especially on the nervous system right. And so to me, I'm like, if we're trying to optimize recovery, manage stress, strictly, burn calories, while also just trying to do enough variety with our training, that we're training different systems in the body. I would say that the best that is going to be low intensity.

Philip Pape: 49:23

As always, I have like 20 takeaways from everything you say, so I'm going to break it down to just like three that really stick out for the listener. The first is even though you're adding in cardio, there's a smart way to program it. We have to think of it as programming still, and I know you have some programs in your app for that. Cody didn't ask me to promote that, I just know he does, because it's true. You have to say do I want to be fatigued and then lift? Or, most likely, do I want to lift fresh and then do my cardio later? For example, also, I don't know if you saw, literally this week, mass reviewed a study from this year that compared the different forms of cardio and found that volume was the most important indicator of cardiovascular health. It wasn't the modality which supports what you're saying.

Philip Pape: 50:04

You don't have to do HIIT. You don't have to do any particular one, you can choose the one that makes sense. And then the idea of HIIT as kind of like strength training in terms of the energy system. I like that one a lot. I don't think we've heard that often. It checks out right, like when you do a heavy deadlift, my heart rate goes up 160, you know, and I'm only doing it for a few seconds, but it reminds me of box jump, burpee days, which I will never do again from CrossFit.

Cody McBroom: 50:29

Those are pretty cool. Yeah, I want to add man, because it is funny that not that many people talk about that, and I'll give credit where credit's due. I remember this might've been so long ago that I was literally talking to him because he coached me before he became a YouTuber. Jeff Nippert said it to me and I was like, oh, that makes sense. That really clicked with me. But even if you look at like and, by the way, I haven't, I actually have the email marked on red for mass, I'm excited about that. I'm going to read it now. I mean, I always read it, but when I see it I'm like, ah, I'm saving that for this weekend. But that's how nerdy I am with my time.

Cody McBroom: 50:59

But the cardio thing, it's like, well, when we think of people who are arguing about like that's not real hit cardio and all that stuff, what do they talk about? They talk about sprint. Okay, well, what does everybody else talk about? Sprinting? Is your anaerobic threshold right? Your anaerobic energy system, they argue, these high intensity models that are going beyond, like, the 10 to 15 second mark. Why? Because you stop being able to rely on that anaerobic energy system.

Cody McBroom: 51:24

The creatine phosphate out about, you know? I think it literally is like eight to 12 seconds, but let's say 10 to 15, just for easy numbers. Well, if we're looking at it like that, that's I mean that sprint is explosive, it's powerful. Get your heart rate up, then you take a long break. If that's true high intensity, that is very, very similar to strength training, very, very similar to lifting. And if it's not similar to lifting to you, then you're probably not training hard enough. Honestly, because you can get that way. You're just doing dumbbell bench press. If you're really pushing it, you should be like kind of gassed, you know, yeah, I mean that's hard training.

Philip Pape: 51:55

It's true, it does build work capacity. I mean, you know, if I start working with a client who's got a lot of weight to lose and we're training and walking at the same time, the lifting sessions are often harder than you know, than the cardio for the heart health, and so there's a reason for that, we have to acknowledge. And you look at, like Westside, they have the dynamic days in there, man just doing sets of you know doing 10 sets in a row a 30 second rest of a bench press, You'll see that that is also a form of cardio when you do it, man.

Philip Pape: 52:23

So it's kind of fun, because then you know you, you have this spectrum of okay, how much of this versus that do I want in there? And, like Cody you were saying, it really depends on your goals. And if you want to go to an extreme, like I want to be a power lifter or I want to do high rocks, you're going to have to, like, make those trade-offs. But you can kind of have it all at some level.

Cody McBroom: 52:40

That's it. You know and I think this will really speak to listeners too I haven't said this way, but this makes a lot of sense because I've noticed this too. But there's a difference between, like, if you go out on a run by yourself and you're like really gassed like halfway through, Okay, you do a workout by yourself and it really gets you. Okay. If you go golfing and you're the guy at the 18th hole that calves are killing them, You're tired, You're sweating, whatever. That's different. That doesn't feel good. You go on a hike and you're that person that doesn't feel good. You want to run with multiple people. That doesn't feel good. I mean, name anything. You never want to be the person who is tired first. Right, and it's not to like shit on people who get to that place. Like I get it. In fact, I've been there. I grew up the chubby kid that's. I was that guy in my group of friends my entire life. So I get it. But I have golfed multiple times since I started running. I have gone in like this sounds crazy, but like mowing the lawn for me. I live on a half acre and I push that thing because I am stubborn, I want to and I'm like I'm doing it, it's easier. Golfing it's easier. I've gone on a couple of runs with friends and we'll go consistently and I've watched myself just get better. And then this last time we ran together and I was talking the whole time they didn't say a word. Why? Because I was feeling good. I was feeling good, I was here to chat, and so I started picking up on that and so for people listening, like there's an aspect of doing some cardio and some of this fitness stuff where you don't have to do a ton, right, but if you do just a little bit of this style of training, you push yourself, it will make all the other things way easier. And then you're the person in the group that is just like crushing it and feeling good and then afterwards it doesn't need Advil and her nap, You're good. I noticed that too.

Cody McBroom: 54:12

We went to Disneyland and I never forget because we had all of us were in the cul-de-sac, all the parents, and they were like we got back and they were like, oh, I remember last year when I went to Disneyland, I was taking like six or seven Advil a day, Like I did. We went back and rested in the middle of the day. I was like I didn moving. I paid for Disneyland. We're going, we're doing the whole thing Like we're walking, you know. But it made me reflect on it. I'm like that's why we're fit Right. It's not just about the half marathon 100%, man, 100%.

Philip Pape: 54:42

I always joke. I want to be deadlifting when I'm 95. And like that's how I go out. You know what I mean? Just functional to the end. You never want to be the person who gets tired first, awesome. So I will leave it at that, but I did want to give you a chance to bring up anything else that I didn't ask you, that you wanted to cover.

Cody McBroom: 55:05

Yeah, man, no, really, just honestly, for everybody listening, just choose hard. Like it can be the simplest things, you know. I actually just talked to a client about this yesterday because he was, I think, applying pressure to himself to do more and I said, hey, doing more isn't always choosing hard. Sometimes you know you're down a lot of weight and we're still pushing, like you're already choosing hard, you're already doing more. But like, choosing hard is the little things, it's the dog and playing with them, it's the kid, it's the friends, it's, you know, he's a trainer. So it's like it's your clients who you need to be enthusiastic with during the session, where you're kind of tired because you're dieting and you're down 30 pounds, so like you're fatigued.

Cody McBroom: 55:32

I get it, choose hard, you know. And so, for everybody listening, just think about the. I think the best analogy if you've watched the matrix and if you haven't start there, go watch the matrix. But the red pill and blue pill, like just start kind of gamifying and think of that Cause. I just think that, you know, as cheesy as it own lives, everybody would be happier.

Philip Pape: 55:54

Cool man. So three takeaways First, definitely watch the Matrix if you haven't yet. Guys, if you're listening to this, I grew up the night. I'm a child of the 80s, so Matrix in the 90s was awesome. And then, second thing, make sure to use the safety on your lawnmower if you're going to book it, like Cody's doing. And then, number three, choose hard, and hard is sometimes the little thing. So that is awesome, cody, I think people know where to find you. But just in case, where can they find you? Where can they look you up?

Cody McBroom: 56:18

Yeah, Cody McBroom on Instagram podcast is tailored life podcast, which hitting episode a thousand and we're making some big changes. So we're going to be rebranding and doing some cool things soon. And then Taylor coaching method is my company. So if you Google my name or Taylor Coaching Method, all that stuff pops up. I'm rolling one.

Philip Pape: 56:35

And congrats on a thousand episodes coming up. That's huge. I know what it takes, speaking of putting in the reps, and I'm sure you've chosen a lot of hard things along the way to make that happen. Yeah, absolutely All right, man. Thanks for coming on. It was a pleasure, as always.